Development Pathways

• Munster promoted 9 guys from the academy at the start of last season. Any comment on that?

And by the end of this season, 4 out of 9 will be gone (French x2, Healy & Flannery); I don't think it's as meaningful a stat as you seem to think it is. You're banging on elsewhere about "when was the last time a province promoted so many players", but it's fairly meaningless when almost half of them are gone within a season (while barely ever playing in all bar Healy's case).

• Crowley, Kendellen and Buckley are all guys who would still be in the academy this season but were promoted early. They have nearly 2000 minutes this season. Any comment on that?

Yeah, clearly it's a very good class, and tbf Munster have backed this group and given them minutes. But the stats did highlight this was an anomalous group over the period, and one of the only ones where the median caps is over 10.

• You suggested Leinster back Tector but Munster don’t back Couglan. Tector had 50 mins over 6 appearances. Couglan had 55 mins over 2 appearances. Any comment on that?

You're trying to seize upon the one player which you think helps your example, and in this instance you use minutes instead of caps because it helps your scenario.

Charlie Tector has played 7 times for Leinster for 92 minutes. He was also an unusued sub on anoter occasion. So he's been part of the match squad 8 times this season, as a Year 1 Academy player, in a position where Leinster are stacked with talent. He would have even more minutes, except Leinster opted to back an even younger Year 1 Academy player in Sam Prendergast for those two starts in SA.

Contrast this with Ethan Coughlan's two solitary appearances this season - a half an hour against an Ospreys team that were being pulverised (the week a lot of them thought they were on the verge of losing their jobs), and 25 minutes against Scarlets, when injury forced the move as the full back was hurt when Munster had already used their back replacement.

I really don't think this example points to Munster having invested more time, effort or development in Ethan Coughlan than Leinster have into Charlie Tector.

You're fixating on these two players, and the reasons why aren't clear to me.

Just on a straight side by side comparison, it's an entirely fair statement to say Leinster have worked to get more appearances and minutes into Charlie Tector than Munster have with Tony Butler (who I originally compared him to) and Ethan Coughlan. This is also despite the fact that Leinster have a multitude of options in the position, including a guy even younger than Tector who they've also gotten minutes into (2 x 80 min performances).

You cannot claim a scenario where a guy who has been in match squads 8 times this season (playing 7 times) isn't getting more opportunities to develop than a guy who hasn't made a single match squad all season (Butler) or a guy who has played twice.

Focusing on the score when Leinster put the player is a complete nonsense. Leinster win most of their games by high margins. Most of Leinster's replacements used in URC games come in in scenarios where the game is effectively decided already.

Yeah, except I specifically said in my post, I don't object to just the notion of recruiting NIQs, and would support the notion of signing a high quality NIQ front rower.

The NIQ signings I think are pointless are the guys who aren't quality upgrades. In this scenario, it makes more sense to just back the academy players to see you through the pinch period.

Would you mind listing the players you're counting in both of these scenarios as well, please?

Yeah, except that's not true.

Even allowing for Keenan who is an unusual example of a particularly late developer, and who spent the bulk of his academy time away with the 7s, all three players got substantial minutes for Leinster while still in the academy.

Josh van der Flier played 6 games (starting 2) for 264 minutes while an academy player, Dan Sheehan played 10 games (starting 3) for 371 minutes while still in the academy. Even Keenan played 5 games (starting 3) while in the academy, for 215 minutes.

Further correction to these stats - the Munster stats are including the friendly game played against SA A, but the Leinster stats are not including the Chile fixture they played this season.

Excluding both non-competitive games, the correct numbers are the following:

Munster: 62 games - 5,691 minutes, 13 players promoted

Leinster - 72 games - 5,653 minutes, 13 players promoted.

So this statement which sounds very strong:

So in the last 3 seasons Munster have promoted more players, who have more starts, more subs appearances and more minutes this season, and comparable average mins vs Leinster.

is actually:

Munster have promoted the same amount of players, who have less starts, and marginally more minutes this season.

And, as stated elsewhere, it kind of ignores the fact that Leinster have given 66 caps to 17 different current Academy players this season, totaling 2,501 minutes (same number for Munster's current academy is 8 players capped, 30 caps, 1,029 minutes).

Yeah, look you're getting a bit upset in tone now because of your big reveal statement earlier:

So in the last 3 seasons Munster have promoted more players, who have more starts, more subs appearances and more minutes this season, and comparable average mins vs Leinster.

It turns out the only part that was actually true was the more sub appearances.

Frankly, it’s utter bullsh*t

You're right about this part though, I literally don't care anymore.

Denis Leamy effectively came out today and said something along the lines of what I said a few days ago that prompted this whole thing, namely that:

Denis Leamy said developing homegrown talent from within Munster should be the top priority.

...the province’s recruitment focus should focus on reinforcing the pipeline of exciting talent coming the academy

“We’ve got to grow our academy, we’ve got to get our own, we’ve got to get Munster-born players through"

“We see day to day the excellence. I worked with the Leinster academy for two years, a really, really strong production line, world class. I see very similar workings going on, on a daily basis and it gives me great hope that we can start to produce the Munster-born boy and get him into the jersey for 50, 100, 150 caps."

“That is ultimately what we want to do. We want to get indigenous players playing in a Munster jersey.”

Not so controversial when he says it though.

But, they don't have more minutes. Not when you exclude the SA A friendly game:

Munster: 159 total caps, 69 starts, 6,592 minutes

Leinster: 149 total caps, 86 starts, 7,026 minutes

Leinster actually have considerably more minutes (434) than Munster in this regard.

No, the best sign of Leinster's elite development versus the other provinces is probably the fact that 50% of the 32 players who made up the Grand Slam winning squad this year were products of the Leinster Academy (versus 15.6% Munster, 12.5% Ulster, 6.3% Connacht and the balance, 15.6% Overseas).

It's probably the fact that Leinster have the highest share of their squad developed from within their own academy (84% - 36 of 43 players) at a time when that squad is a perennial European contender and has topped the URC for well over half a decade - contrast this to Munster where 67% of the squad is academy produced (29 of 43 players), Connacht 46% (21 of 46 players) and Ulster 61% (30 of 49 players).

In fact, in the other provinces, apart from overseas players, the next biggest contributors in every scenario is the Leinster Academy: Munster (5 players - 12% - Carbery, Conway, Patterson, Beirne, Loughman), Connacht (9 players - 20% - Aungier, Dooley, Dowling, Thornbury, J Murphy, Daly, Farrell, Hawkshaw, A Byrne) and Ulster (4 players - 8% - Madigan, Cooney, J Murphy, Moore).