Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans in OP**
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So when the deed was done.. Why would the killer walk back up to the house to check the property or close the door?
To enter the property increases the risk of detection.. He would have been bloodied and not thinking clearly, why would he bother if the door was open or shut? Why bother going back up the hill again anyway? Just get the hell out of there...
One possibility might be that the killer was covered in blood and wanted to quickly clean up rather than take to the roads covered in blood. I wonder if there was traces of blood in the kitchen or bathroom sinks (or if they were even checked).
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"Do you agree that she was probably drawn there by a disturbance of some sort?"
Yes, I've long held the belief that a trespasser onto her property came in through Sophie's gate into her lawn. ( both gates were found open)
Someone she recognised, someone local that knew the surroundings, especially the pumphouse and gate area.
The attacker's fingerprints may well have been found around the area but couldn't be linked to the murder as they had been a regular visitor to the area before the murder.
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Assuming that the attacker was known to Sophie....
What would ignite such a frenzied assault?
I don't buy into the disputed open gate scenario with the neighbours - She was only around for a couple of days during her visits (I would be inclined to bite my tongue knowing that she'll be gone again shortly).
Bailey mentioned the lights were on in Alfie's that fateful night, was there a party on, it was Christmas after all? But even if a late night reveller had made a din opening the gate whilst leaving, or maybe urinating in the vicinity before driving off.... Would that provoke such a response? I really doubt it.
The young fellow that was prone to watching Sophie through her windows at night, wasn't he also known to have removed underwear from her washing line(s)? Now here is a person of interest.. What if he was caught during one of his voyeurism escapades? The very threat of being revealed as a pervert may tip the young man over the edge - That is a clear motive for me.
Who was the person breaking in to Sophie's and using the bath? Note - No locks were forced... (Interesting) But again, even if this mystery person returned to find the house occupied, that's hardly cause for a savage attack on somebody is it?
There is no evidence of a robbery gone wrong... Nothing was taken, even after the murderer knew she was dead.
Tyre marks were recovered from the scene, I do not recall if they were ever matched to a vehicle?
I am nearly convinced the killer is local, and was known to Sophie.
Where does Maria Farrell fit into all of this? A liar yes, trustworthy no, complicated - most definitely.
The investigation would know nothing about her until she made them calls.. What prompted her to make them? Was she seen in the area by the killer? Did she collect the killer near the vicinity of the murder? Why would she never reveal the identity of her companion that night? Did she have a passenger that night? Was she out at all that night, her husband knows?
There is nothing (for me) that adds support to this being a random killing, or indeed a paid killing.
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You've raised some interesting points here.
Some things I would disagree, but not in terms of them not happening, but in terms of being a possibility.
I would actually always see the strong financial motive of the husband wanting to avoid a costly divorce, and having somebody paid off to killer her. By far his financial motive was the highest. Killers can be instructed on the where and when, and would have known and found the house with ease. The method of killing could be deliberately have been a beating, to make it look less professional. I've also read reports somewhere that she might have been strangled and beaten and bashed later on? Travelling in and out of Ireland was most likely not via France but via a 3rd country and on dodgy papers, if they were checked at all. I've often arrived on a ferry or a plane in Ireland back then, nobody asked for a passport, or officers waved me through.
What we don't know is that there are several unconfirmed reports on a party at Alfie's that night. Was that party really taking place? Was it only Bailey or Jules who noted that while driving home? How come they saw that so precisely on that distance at night? Could have been that house or the other house at night? How can you tell from a distance that there was a party taking place? One light on, and maybe one car's headlights doesn't immediately strike anybody as a party going on? Who were the guests at Alfie's place that night? I suggest guests would have arrived by car and driven there. Tire marks? If they came by car, they would have been there at Alfie's and Shirley's? Didn't the police find any of them there?
One interesting point you've raised is Marie Farrell: If Marie Farrell was coerced by the police, how come the police have chosen her to be coerced to make false statements in a court of law? There must have been some prior connection between Marie Farrell and the police for the police to pick her to make statements of having seen men in dark coats at odd hours or the day and night.... But what kind of connection?
Also, who was using Sophie's bathroom during her absence? I'd suggest the police spoke to the caretaker about that, but she didn't know it either. Locks were exchanged, but that was it? Apparently so. Possibly an unrelated lead, but still one would like to have had an answer to. Would Alfie or Shirley have had any motivation to use Sophie's bathroom?
No robbery? Really? At least not in the classic sense. There were reports of a diary or a notebook taken? And what about the suitcase, or suitcases? How many were there? Didn't she bring more clothes this time? What kind of clothes? for winter?
Also the blood stain at the door of the house? It was established as Sophie's blood? But who made the stain? The killer, after the killing upon return to the house to look for something?
I think that the killer knew Sophie was at home and he planned to at least visit her and prevent something her from doing. It could have turned into an argument and a killing but also into an intended planned killing, long term planned, or planned in a shortness of time. After all her trip to Ireland was not a routine and regular trip it was out of the ordinary for her.
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would actually always see the strong financial motive of the husband wanting to avoid a costly divorce, and having somebody paid off to killer her. By far his financial motive was the highest. Killers can be instructed on the where and when, and would have known and found the house with ease. The method of killing could be deliberately have been a beating, to make it look less professional. I've also read reports somewhere that she might have been strangled and beaten and bashed later on?
As she was wearing her boots, I would not be inclined to think it was some stranger that killed her. She went outside having taken the time to put the boots on so she wasn't running for her life. I can't see the murder being a hired hit, at all.
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She was wearing the same boots on Sunday afternoon when visiting the Ungerers, so more than likely they were either by the front door where the wellies were kept or at the foot of the stairs with the other footwear when she pulled them on to leave house. Sophie only ever used the front door, and outdoor boots etc. we’re never worn upstairs.
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The facts or few facts and all the open ends we have in this case doesn't really include or exclude anything with certainty. This is why there is no conviction beyond reasonable doubt, at least in the legal framework Ireland has.
I've had many thoughts about this case.
Having the time of putting on boots and walking ( possibly not running? - we don't know that either ) would suggest she was walking down with somebody she knew. We can't say as well, if she knew that visitor that fateful night very well, or not that well. We also don't even know if the killer was one person only, or even two or three, one knocking at her door walking her down to the gate and one attacking from behind the brambles.
With so little real evidence to go on, it's hard to say, what's more likely or less likely. Even worse, the murder weapon being that cinder block could have touched by anybody, you'd even get some DNA by the builder or contractor building that pumphouse, if one is thorough enough, so matching killer to murder weapon and crime scene is even harder.
However given the fact that the police botched up the investigation so gravely, evidence lost, coerced witnesses or other bystanders coerced, it is to a strong degree likely this case will never be solved at all.
And then there is the problem of fading memories which is unsuitable for any form of cross examination and many people having passed away as well.
Fact is, we all don't know very much about this case. All we have are different interpretations of different people, seeing things differently, often based on their own life's experience and sound judgement.
Based on what I know ( and I certainly don't know it all ), I find it very hard to believe that a man like Bailey enjoys a night out in the pub, with music, singing and lot's of alcohol together with his partner Jules and then embarks on a one hour hike in the middle of the night to kill a woman where there is no real motive at all. Waiting for nearly 5 or 6 months, just to cheat on Jules and sleep with Sophie and if she doesn't give in, kill her in a rage? It's a motivation which is hard to comprehend for me albeit possible and can't be ruled out either.
Yes, agreed, the killing looks like a rage killing by what I or we all have been reading. We also all know that looks can be deceiving, and crime and murder is about deception, - it's part of nearly every murder case. Even planned or unplanned is up for debate. If a house is sitting empty for the majority of the year, and only inhabited for a couple of weeks, then the killer must known with utter certainty that Sophie was staying there, he must at least have planned to go there, when Sophie was there. Only for what reason? Just sexual desires? ( he would have to wait an awfully long time for that one in any given year) or some other motive?
And this other motive always brings up either drugs others being in on drugs and Sophie having seen something, or the husband wanting to avoid a divorce.
Both motives are strong ones, whether they are more likely or less likely we all don't know.
Odd about the case which can't easily be explained away is the police and their motive to collude, cover up and coerce pointing to a possible involvement by a Guard in this case.
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Has anyone ever been able to wade through the bullshit surrounding Marie Farrell? Who was she actually with that night? Was she with anyone? What was she actually doing? Or was she even there at all? She seems like a complete lunatic to me constantly trying to insert herself into the story.
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I think Baileys motivation regarding Sophie would be him seeing her as very much his type. Arty with lots of connections and way more sophisticated than Jules. She could have been his ticket to the big leagues. I think we can all agree that he has a massive ego and could very easily have thought that way.
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It is a possibility. Bailey had at least the time to do it. However Bailey would have been smarter to discuss any possible business venture after many drinks and in the middle of the night.
There's been talk of Bailey meeting Sophie on a ferry on some small island for a poetry festival, there's been talk of Bailey ringing Sophy's office in Paris, but nothing's confirmed on this, as far as I know.
The first question I would have is what's the connection between Marie Farrell and the police? Why precisely did they, the police, pick her, Marie Farrell, to be coerced to make false statements, even in court? What did they have on her, to get her to do this? There must have been a prior connection, otherwise the police could have picked anybody, but anybody won't be coerced that easily. But they didn't pick anybody, they picked Marie Farrell.
Whom she was with that night, we'll probably never know for sure. She's unreliable, and it's a proven fact by now that she's a liar, by her own volition or via coercion, we don't know.
A man in a coat loitering in some alleyway or near her shop, a man in a coat besides Kaelfadda bridge at night, nothing like that ever proves murder.
By contrast Martin Graham was easy prey for the police. He was a transient, he had no money, and slept in a barn, he was also from England, same as Bailey. The police thought Bailey would talk and open up to Martin Graham, especially if drugs were involved.
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It is not a "lawn". Rough pasture at best.
Bailey is a bore and a bowsie but this wasn't a rural idyll. In that three house hamlet there were two large drug busts and a murder. The chances of those three events not being linked is miniscule.
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What were the two large drug busts in that specific hamlet?
"To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)
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I would assume that by "three house hamlet" you're referring to the Richardson's, Alfie and Shirley's as well as Sophie's. Today there is even a fourth house, right at the entrance of that hamlet, when you're driving in from the main road. ( that is if one can call it main road at all, it's all very rural there...)
I don't know much about the Richardsons other that they were apparently from the UK and were similarly often at their property as Sophie, something to the tune of a couple of weeks in any given year? Maybe somebody knows more in this forum? It's therefore possible that Sophie never even met the Richardsons, or maybe only once or twice during her ownership of her house.
With Alfie and Shirley it's different, they lived there all year round, and Alfie had a drug habit and some kind of previous brush with the law? So if there was some kind of "large drug bust" it would have revolved around them, not Sophie or the Richardsons.
When it comes to drugs I am only aware of Leo Bolger and the law was lenient on him. I doubt very much if the law would have been lenient on him a 2nd time. And avoiding a jail sentence and keeping somebody silent forever would for Bolger have been a strong motive.
Did the Ungerers ever have a problem with the law or a drug habit?
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A note about the drugs connection. I looked back through the posts for a while but could not find this cold-case update being discussed. I apologise in advance if already covered, but thought it relevant to drop-in at this point...
"Gardai are looking at a number of possible new suspects over the murder of Sophie Toscan du Plantier.
One is a French speaking individual who was spotted in a Kerry pub the night after her murder with marks and scratches on his face. A suspicious barman at the time in Cahirciveen reported him to the local Gardai and he was questioned before being eventually let go.
It later emerged that this person was the spitting image of an individual who was spotted by shopkeeper Marie Farrell following Sophie, 38, around Schull village, west Cork, in the afternoon before she was killed on the night of December 23, 1996. The man speaks fluent French but is from another European country. He also used a rented car which had false number plates. Gardai have the name of the man following Sophie and an address for him in France.
But it is also understood Gardai are also pursuing a connection between the tragic filmmaker and two other French men who lived in West Cork, although the men themselves are not suspects. The pair were hiding out in the isolated rural area after receiving death threats from a French criminal gang. It is understood that Sophie had met the men while she was in Ireland and Gardai are investigating whether she was targeted because of her friendship with them."
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It was already mentioned, but given how poor the site search function is, not surprised you didn't find it. Welcome to the thread.
You might have to dig back to posts around late December 2022. I think this was the article (dated 14 DEC 2022).
https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/garda-trace-french-speaker-scratches-28729258
"To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)
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That's an interesting aspect. Thanks for sharing that bit if information.
The question would have to be answered what a French criminals gang was doing there? What could be of interest to French criminals in rural SW Ireland? Most likely the answer is in deed drugs.
One thing I was always aware of, is some French fisherman, being present in the area and frequenting certain pubs at the time of the murder. It is not understood if he knew Sophie at all, or had a brief conversation with her? If that was the case a bar keeper in a pub may have remembered seeing them talking?
And then there was the story of the German musician, often referred to as being from East Germany, who committed suicide upon return to Germany, after stating of having done "something very terrible". We will probably never know the answer to that one.
Regarding all that current cold case enquiries by the police, it'll probably be very hard to get a solid murder conviction. A cavity block with possible DNA in a position anybody could have touched prior to the murder? After all the cavity block was near the entrance, anybody could have touched it.
Even if asked, what did you do that fateful night one would be very lucky to recall memories at all, - or even if one gets the year right. Any answer to that question would always certainly beg the question, how can you be so sure, it was the right year? And even, an I remember this and that happened in my life that year, is a bit shaky in terms of an answer.
The police can only narrow and zoom in on things a bit, but without solid evidence a conviction is unlikely. It only would seem by your statements that the investigation would lead away from Bailey, and more towards somebody who either has a connection to France or spoke French.
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Drug gangs if it is related then probably more that one involved.
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Some thoughts I've been having lately:
Sophie's keys were in the front door, inside, in the lock. There's been a lot of talk about her voluntarily going to the gate to either greet or confront someone. But If that's the case then she would have to have left the back door open, because she didn't take her keys. This seems unlikely to me. Unless she was in a big rush and just ran out the back door, but then she apparently took time to put on boots and lace them up, so why not take the keys and close the door behind her on a cold winter's night/morning? I know the crime scene picture shows the door latch open, but I think there was confusion as to whether it was found that way or the Gardaí opened it? I'm leaning towards the initial altercation happening outside the back door and her running down the front garden to the gate. I believe there was blood found along this route which would add some weight to that theory.
The blood stain on the door could then have happened during the initial altercation or after the murder by the killer closing the door. Why bother closing the door if the body is in plain sight? Like so much in this case it doesn't make sense.
With regard to Marie Farrell. She really inserted herself into the story. I'm not sure I believe she did that purely to get attention or for a bit of a buzz. She muddied the water of the investigation very early on and continued to do so for years by changing her story. By her own admission she was in the area of the murder, possibly around the time of the murder, with another individual who has never been identified.
Standing back a bit and leaving the "crazy" Marie Farrell point of view to the side for a moment, one could say she seemed to be deliberately throwing the investigation off course and an inexperienced Garda team were drawn in by her stories. How she has never been charged with perverting the course of justice is beyond me. Surely she could have been charged, brought to court and potentially jailed for withholding that kind of information, which would quite quickly have made her either confess the identity or to making the whole thing up.
If we do believe that she was out that night driving around with another individual, then her actions become very suspect. Not identifying her acquaintance, using a false name to give information about seeing somebody else in the area at the time, saying that she saw another unusual person outside her shop, changing her description of who she saw (albeit that may have been at the behest of the Gardaí). It's all very suspicious behavior. Motive in her case would be impossible to speculate on without knowing the identity of the acquaintance she was with. Was she protecting him because of who he was? Was she coerced into making the Fiona calls in order to lead the Gardaí in the wrong direction?
I'm just uneasy about her whole involvement. I think there's possibly more to it and what she knows.
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The blood stain on the door is an odd one. All we know is that it is Sophie's blood, but how did it get there? The killer going back to the house ( for whatever reason, like taking the diary ), or Sophie getting injured in an altercation right at the door. The latter option could have meant noise and screams, but Alfie and Shirley stated they didn't hear anything, or so they claimed to.... Given Alfie's brush with the law at some point before, it's questionable how much he can be believed or not.
I see your other statements on this pretty much the same way. Marie Farrell should have been charged with perverting the course of justice. The case against her would have been a straight conviction.
Regarding her statements I wouldn't see anything as credible at all. She could have seen a man that night near Kealfadda Bridge, or not, it's possible she wasn't even out and about that night, or driving in a car with a friend. Seeing a man near Kealfadda Bridge that night or the same man or a man of similar description loitering near her shop or in an alleyway behind her shop certainly doesn't prove murder.
It's quite possible that Marie Farrell knew more, but again, can she ever be believed? I doubt that very much.
I've heard stories that Jim Sheridan spoke to Marie Farrell again, for a new documentary? Who knows how credible that is? Another story for people to talk about, based on hearsay by a dodgy "witness" that is, if Marie Farrell can be considered a witness at all.
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You're right, it was far from the peaceful rural idyll that Sophie had imagined it would be. The Hellens and Sophie on one side and Alfie and the Bolgers on the other side. Sophie had put up gates and fencing to keep animals off her property which would have restricted access to Alfie's shed and field at the front of his house. Leo Bolger was grazing horses on Alfie's land at the time and may have needed access to that field and the shed.
I made no mention of Bailey in my post that you quoted, I don't know why you brought him into it.
The "two large drug busts" ? Leo Bolger had left the area and was busted in Durrus. After a tip-off the Keystone cops found a dozen or so plants on Alfie's land and made a big deal of it in the press. (Not quite the £3+million haul bound for Dunmanus a few years later that accidentally fell into their lap when someone put petrol in the diesel tank of the rib)
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Just wondering, was Leo Bolger ever convicted and sent to jail? Even at some point after the murder?
If Leo Bolger and Alfie were in on something, they both must have known that Sophie was rarely at her house, so they could come and go and hide stuff on Alfie's land or in some shed without getting noticed. Sophie's surprise visit just before Christmas would certainly have surprised them both. This visit at this time of the year was indeed out of the ordinary.
To me the big oddity would still be Daniel, Sophie's husband. From a financial aspect he did have the biggest motive by far for killing Sophie, - or having it done by whomever. His behaviour certainly is odd right from the onset. He not only refused to travel to Ireland, he also refused to speak to the Irish Guards in France, but only spoke to or made some statement to the French police?
It's quite possible that the killer or the killing is entirely French or living in France, rather than in Ireland and the motive is "big money" rather than sex, cheating and possible jealousy.
I doubt if Bolger's and Alfie's drug activity was ever big time, and big money, both their lifestyles certainly didn't show it. The fact that they caught Bolger at some point but didn't convict him, still would mean that Bolger understood that he could never operate with impunity as he would always have been on the radar screen, - and Alfie was more a small time user? or may growing a bit and selling even less? I'd suggest that if drugs were ever involved as a motive for murder, the local police would have to have been in it as well.
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Leo Bolger's sentence was highly suspicious, and completely out of line with similar sentences from the same judge, given the scale of the operation. It was a planned operation, he wasn't a kid who didn't know what they were doing. He wasn't just growing for his mates.
There is something fishy about it for sure - possibilities? He had dirt on other people including Guards, or Guards wanted him to give \ get dirt on Bailey.
"To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)
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That sentence Bolger received and the police collusion and coercion of witnesses would always lead to implicate that the police had some kind of dirty side on this. The Bandon garda tapes were evidence of that as well.
Any cold case investigation should also look into these connections as well. However that's hardly going to happen.
Yes, I knew about that sentence back then. But was Bolger convicted at some other time as well, later on, after the murder? Has be been colpletely clean ever since? Just curious?
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Good question - what happened next.
I don't find any other court cases coming up... or any hits except wrt the Bailey case, except the recent below article.
A West Cork restaurant owner has said he will not pay a hefty bill of over €6,000 invoiced to him from Cork County Council for fire services after the Schull Fire Brigade was called to put out a gorse fire near his business premises. Leo Bolger, proprietor of Bally Bia in Ballydehob, was landed with a bill for €6,116 after the Schull and Bantry Fire Brigades services were called to extinguish gorse fires in the area of Coomfarna, Durrus, and Bantry on March 4 this year. Mr Bolger did not call the fire services on the day, and even assisted in putting out the blaze.
"To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)
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Did the Ungerers have any issues with the law at some point? Drug possession or that sort? Or Bailey, except domestic violence?
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I haven't heard of anything alone those lines. The court case that springs to mind is...
THE husband of the key witness in the Ian Bailey libel case, Marie Farrell, has been convicted of assaulting a man he claimed had been stalking his wife and children. Chris Farrell (52) was convicted of assaulting James McKenna in a west Cork car-park.
"To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)
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I take it the motive for this assault is totally unrelated to the murder case of Sophie. By the sounds of it, it's an entirely different matter?
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With Marie Farrell who knows! It may not be totally unrelated to whatever carrying on \ behaviour she was up to at the time of the murder.
The article did say that...
He claimed that Mr McKenna (44) had been stalking members of his family, trespassing on his property and writing articles about his wife on the internet. This, he claimed, was in connection with the libel action taken by journalist Ian Bailey over newspaper coverage of the Sophie Toscan du Plantier murder investigation.
"To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)
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The libel case would be something different from the murder case, it came at a later stage.
I'd rather focus on the cold case review. Since it is the Guards who are doing the cold case reviewing, they would hardly implicate one of their own. Thus drugs or a drug related motive would probably not lead anywhere because it seems that the local Guards back then were indeed in on something, but this may have either been a coincidence or unrelated to the murder case, - or Sophie had indeed seen something she shouldn't have...?
With Bailey quite possibly out of the main focus, I would guess the Guards would turn more towards France in their cold case review endeavors. Possibly her husband, - now deceased, but possibly close friends her husband had who are still alive or maybe Bruno, Sophie's former lover.
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Since it is the Guards who are doing the cold case reviewing, they would hardly implicate one of their own.
I wouldn't be too sure that a cold case squad in Dublin would have much sympathy for an incompetent shower down in West Cork!
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