Development Pathways

If nobody wants to dispute what happens over a longer period, then have a word with Robin there, because on no less than 6 occasions in this thread he's felt the need to make the same point about Munster's exemplary record of producing scrum halves:

So if he wants to discuss that, then surely the record in other positions should be up for discussion too, no?

Yeah, but the whole original spark of this debate was a broadly similar scenario in Munster.

In this situation, which was fairly unprecedented, Leinster went and backed the Academy player. They've given him 17 caps this year, 5 starts, and he's played in multiple European knock outs. Because of that, a position that appeared highly concerning when Cronin and Tracy retired now looks much more assured, and he's moving to a senior contract next season.

Leinster could have absolutely made the case to go sign an NIQ medical joker style player when James Tracy retired and Ronan Kelleher had persistent injuries, but instead they gave those minutes to McKee.

That's literally the whole point of what I'm talking about here.

Well it's funny you should mention it, but I was critical of the decision to allow Jack Dunne to leave, while signing Jason Jenkins:

Also have to parrot the earlier posters who were lamenting the fact Jack Dunne is leaving. I know he hadn't gotten huge game time over the past two seasons, both as a result of injury problems and the quality of the players in front of him, but we aren't exactly flush with 23-year-old 6ft 8 and 115kg locks, who have an abrasive style to their game, and it's sad to see him going.

For me, it is somewhat un-Leinsterlike to see Dunne leaving, and effectively being replaced by a guy like Jason Jenkins. Jenkins probably had his best game (not a lot to choose from) in a Munster shirt last Friday night in Ravenhill, but I still haven't seen enough to suggest he even gets into a first choice Leinster 23, much less enhance their chances of winning a Champions Cup, so really all you've achieved by swapping Dunne for him is a slight diminution of the playing pool for potential national team selection.

I'm glad to say Jenkins has exceeded expectations, but, no, I wasn't one of those fans clamouring to sign an NIQ.

Somewhat unrelated to the topic at hand but I'm trying to gauge the line between acceptable and non-acceptable NIQ signings, since that seems to be one (of many) point of contention.

On this point, I've said it above, I've no issue whatsoever with high quality NIQs (if budget permits etc). There is a tonne of evidence of the benefits of the recruitment of these guys, and the development benefits they give to younger players.

The NIQ signings that frustrate me are the journeymen. Guys just earning a paycheck, filling a jersey, but literally not really doing anything to help Irish rugby, beyond blocking an Irish player from getting development minutes. There have been plenty of examples of these sort of players too in recent years.

Yeah, nice story, once again - not true though.

John McKee has been part of the Leinster sub-Academy or Academy since July 2020:

What are the hookers signed up for next season when Sheehan and Kelleher (if not injured) will be at the world cup? Will they stick with McElroy, Barron and McKee?

Yeah, I think they likely will. They have Gus McCarthy coming into the Academy (he was on standby for the SA Tour). They clearly have backed McKee, but Barron and McElroy have started games this season too. I wouldn't expect them to sign anyone else.

So you post something that is just patently wrong, and I'm the one losing credibility?

If you believe a player's development is done by the time they leave school, then I should augment my numbers from yesterday around the number of 'Leinster developed' players in the other provinces to include the following:

Munster: Josh Wycherley, Fineen Wycherley

Connacht: Conor Oliver, Jordan Duggan, Sam Illo, Paul Boyle, Diarmuid Kilgallen, Tiernan O'Halloran

Ulster: Nick Timoney, Eric O'Sullivan, Cormac Izuchukwu, Alan O'Connor, David Shanahan etc.

Of course, this is nonsense. John McKee was no more a pro-ready prospect in July 2020 than Josh Wycherley was when he left Roscrea or Nick Timoney was when he left Blackrock, and the development for those latter two should rightly be attributed to Munster and Ulster.

John McKee entered the Leinster Academy at the exact same point (and age) as the vast majority of players do - you might notice the crop joining this year are almost all 20 year olds, who've left school and started college, and who have just played for the Irish U20s.