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Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Not true this was debunked months ago so your Big gotcha has fallen flat already,

    Russia has losts 200,000 men ,70 % of their entire tank force along with thousands of armoured vehicles, artillery and radar systems,and they lost a decent amount of their airforce,

    While ukraine has massive increased its Army,Tanks ,IFVs , artillery, while receiving live 24/7 intelligence from Nato and Nato aircraft,

    The Ukrainans also haven't been embarrassed by having to massively retreat twice in a few months from karkhiv and Kherson



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,923 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    She misspoke and it was clarified after. It's cheap to use something that was mis-stated and doing so suggests an agenda on your part.

    The truth is we don't know how many have died on either side, we just have estimates. Both militaries, for obvious reasons, don't want to release the figures of how many they have lost. Some leaked information on the Russian side last year suggested a high amount of casualties on their side, that coupled with OSINT and other sources give us a (very) rough idea. For the Ukr side, it's hard to tell, but estimates have put it at about 10k to 20k killed with a higher ratio of casualties (they seem to have much better medical than the Russians)

    As for the amount of Russian troops in Ukraine. It would appear there was more now, but it's widely believed that their quality has dropped significantly due to elite brigades being practically wiped out in the past year, coupled with using many conscripts and e.g. prisoners. Russia has been throwing everything at this and they can barely take a town for 7 months. It's still a potent force, but quantity doesn't seem to be a key factor.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,665 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    So we're both clear that she obviously misspoke and there was a clarification issued after but you are deciding that the clarification is actually a lie and you will interpret (the clearly mistaken) comment however you feel by saying its obviously what she meant? You can believe she said officers instead of soldiers by mistake, but not that she said deaths instead of casualties - two things that native english speakers frequently mistake.

    Also did you even read your linked article? Yes, the air force is not much depleted - because the Russians are too afraid to use it over Ukraine. Yes the Navy only lost one vessel (to an enemy with no navy) and their undersea forces are intact but neither of these things matter for the ground force invasion of Ukraine. That is what he is referring to with his comment on their military being unaffected.

    The ground forces are larger because of massive rounds of conscription. They are, however, less well trained and less well equipped then when they were embarrassed at the start of the war.

    The article also helpfully mentions that your obsession with 100,000 Ukrainian deaths is nonsense.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,159 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    The Russian armed forces have been shown to be poor. They are now in a weakened state and barring a large input from China/n Korea they will collapse under a strong targeted offensive from Ukraine.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,324 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    I see Moscow has ramped up drone attacks on Kyiv, as well as bombarding Kherson; all this dissembling and goalpost shifting is a markedly desperate attempt to avoid addressing the realities of what this invasion has entailed - and continues to entail. Specifically: launching attacks on civilian targets in a deliberate attempt to kill non-combatants and destroy morale. There's a phrase for killing civvies in war - and only one side has done this. One army. I've no idea what to make of those drones that "attacked" the Kremlin but the idea Kyiv was behind stretches credulity - but will no doubt make for a useful excuse to ramp up the aggression.

    It's quite obnoxious & galling a noted apologist and broken record would accuse the rest of us of being bloodthirsty warmongers, when these kind of atrocious acts have become a daily norm. Nobody wants to read these tragedies happening, but as before it bares repeating: one man has the power to stop these kind of assaults. Not Zelensky, not Biden, not Von DerLeyen. Yet the argument is that Ukraine should lay down their arms and hope Russia plays nice this time? Why on earth should they?

    The violence in Kherson has increased markedly this week, with 23 people killed by Russian strikes in the region on Wednesday, including a deadly bombardment of a supermarket that killed eight people.




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  • Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭grumpyperson


    John Joseph Mearsheimer is an American political scientist and international relations scholar, who belongs to the realist school of thought. He is the R. Wendell Harrison Distinguished Service Professor at the University of Chicago. He has been described as the most influential realist of his generation.

    "Russia is fighting a defensive war", in his words. Robert harries him a bit for this viewpoint.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    An hour long video... you're going to need to slim that down - highlight the relevant bit. But, from what you've said, I'd posit Russia is fighting a defensive war against the wrong people, wait until China comes looking for their land back.



  • Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭grumpyperson




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    He says Russia is engaged in a defensive war... and then has a stupid grin on his face while the other guy talks. Could only listen for a minute. Russia would be fighting a defensive war if Ukraine attacked it. Now, regardless of that view point, one would surely admit it was a great mistake attacking Ukraine, because Russia has been exposed as military bums. Plain and simple. So, it was a moronic strategy at best. In reality it was a land grab Putin the great style. Again, Putin is an psychopathic idiot.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,665 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Robert harries him a bit for this viewpoint.

    Good, because it is a profoundly stupid viewpoint.

    Mearsheimer and his ilk have shown themselves up massively in this conflict and they don't deserve the sobriquet "realist" to be used next or near them. Here is some realism for Mearsheimer - every non-NATO neighbour of Russia has had either an invasion of significant Russian interference. Russia is the reason they are keen to join the defensive alliance.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,812 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    It’ll be very interesting to see if Wagner will actually leave Bakhmut on the 10th.

    Maybe a good idea for Ukraine to offer him a deal and fight with them :D



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Not a bad idea. Russia can’t start firing nukes if it’s the Wagner group marching on Moscow 🤔



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,444 ✭✭✭jmreire


    And so is Ukraine, and TBH, my sympathies lie with Ukraine, Mr Mearsheimer opinion notwithstanding.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,444 ✭✭✭jmreire


    Russians should be fighting against their mortal enemy, Vladimir Putin, truth be told. Because he is singlehandedly destroying the federation of Russian Republics..



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,680 ✭✭✭eire4


    The University of Chicago the same school that brought the world Milton Friedman and his so called "trickle down economics" which turned out to be make the rich richer and screw everyone else a lovely fit for the authoritarian kleptocratic regime in Moscow.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,923 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    I've commented on this Mearsheimer character before:

    Yeah I saw that when the Russian ministry of Defense reposted it, and when it popped up on the conspiracy forum. Mearsheimer, like most realists, has some very questionable views. In a nutshell, according to him, democratic countries existing beside Russia were a threat to Putin which culminated in the invasion of Ukraine, so those countries, alongside the West are ultimately to "blame" for the invasion. It has a twisted sort of technical truth to it, but using that same logic then e.g. the war reparations and Versailles treaty created the groundwork for the rise of Hitler, therefore, the West is ultimately to "blame" for WW2. This kind of schtick is why people don't take political scientists very seriously these days.

    Anyway here's a decent rebuttal and explainer.




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,948 ✭✭✭circadian


    I'd call him a tankie. A few of my mates fall into this category. No one disputes the poor foreign policy of the US or invasions of Iraq/Afghanistan or other activities but it can't be used to justify the actions of Russia.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,923 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Someone recently pointed out this term:

    Campist

    Noun[edit]

    campist (plural campists)

    1. Synonym of third-campist
    2. (derogatorypoliticssocialismslang) A leftist who supports any country/organization simply for being opposed to the United States or the West, including authoritarian governments who would otherwise not follow leftist beliefs.




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,688 ✭✭✭Economics101


    Mearsheimer is not representative of the University of Chicago. Its faculty have been awarded 78 Nobel prizes, second only to Cambridge (UK). Your reference to Milton Friedman (a Nobel leureate) is a diversion, and his achievements were more than you state.

    Reminds me a bit about Michael D's jaundived views on the economics profession.

    BUt I agree, Mearsheimer is a disgrace.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,444 ✭✭✭jmreire


    Mearsheimer ( and his fellow theorists) really need to live in Ukraine ( even Bakhmut.. but that might be asking a bit much.) but any of Ukraine's cities that are under attack will do and allow him to see the real face of Putins Russia. Then let him re-write his theory of the war being the west's fault.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,324 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    I wasn't sure what this meant til I looked it up. That's a helluva threat. I knew Prigozhin was outspoken but I don't even know how that'd work: retreat from Bakhmut and then what? Take the bus or train back to Russia - you'd imagine Prigozhin and his seniors would become instant targets for reprisal. It has to be an empty threat ... right? Have Wagner made similar threats before?



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,444 ✭✭✭jmreire


    I doubt very much if Prigozhin will take the bus back to Moscow....He'll be taking his military ( what ever remains of it) in a convoy, with all their weapons and equipment. IF HE LEAVES, THAT IS. I'll wait and see what actually happens. He's now coming under pressure in Syria, and most recently in Sudan, and may have to withdraw some of his forces from these places to strengthen his position in Russia, or vice-versa. This might explain his present threat to withdraw from Bakhmut.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,680 ✭✭✭eire4


    The University of Chicago is a highly regarded institution and with reason. It's economics department however not so much. The horrific Milton Friedman and his let the rich get richer at the expense of and screwing the vast majority has caused untold misery in many countries particularly in latin America and University of Chicago educated economists were at the forefront of destroying so many lives.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,688 ✭✭✭Economics101


    The Unicersity of Chicago has 14 Nobel Laureates to its credit. One of them is James Heckman, for whom I had the honour of arranging a lecture in Ireland. While his Nobel was for theoretical developments in Econometrics, his big contribution to applied work was to quantify the benefits of early intervention in childhood education to combat disadvantage. He worked on this with Irish economists from UCD and the ESRI. So much for any dismissal of Chicago.

    Firedman is best known for his fairly radical free market stance, but he is hardly the cut-out cardboard villain you seem to think. His Nobel citation was for "achievements in the fields of consumption analysis, monetary history and theory and for his demonstration of the complexity of stabilization policy".

    Don't use Mearsheimer (who is totally discredited now) to attack Chicago in general, or even Friedman. I am reminded a bit about the Michael D Higgins attitude to Economics and economists: attacking something he doesn't understand.




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,324 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Well the bluff seems to have worked, so we'll see what happens next re. Bakhmut. Such a charnal house and you'd wonder if Kyiv has had a broader strategy in holding it. Plenty of theorising anyway, that's for sure. Certainly Russia has committed - and lost - a great deal of soldiers; but IIRC they have been Wagner recruits from prisons so not exactly crack troops here.




  • Registered Users Posts: 8,444 ✭✭✭jmreire


    He ( Prigoshin) used the Convicts as cannon fodder, while keeping his more experienced mercenaries' away from the front lines both to enforce the convicts, and preserve / protect his mercenaries. One of his problems now ( with Putin and Co, there are many problems, always) is that the convict pipeline has been shut down ( one reason being that convict's were being used as slave labour, earning thousands for the management , who were far from happy with Prigoshin interfering with their income generating projects and called a halt. It was for sure not on moralistic grounds that it was stopped.) So now that he has the ammunition that he needs , he needs more men, but his options are limited..take some from Syria, Sudan or any of the other places he has them? Backhmut by the 9th, or bust seems to be the goal...and maybe save his own hide??



  • Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭grumpyperson


    In a nutshell, his current stance seems to be peace with Russia and war with China to maintain US centric unipolar world.

    Can you point to where Mearsheimer has been discredited?



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    He Claims the war in Ukraine is the Wests fault,

    He now lives of his notorious posts that get shared by Kremlin and Beijing officials and one of his friends is one Viktor orban

    Discredited.



  • Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭grumpyperson


    I mean a peer reviewed journal or reputable newspaper article that points to him being discredited. Anonymous poster called Gatling who hates Russia is not really an objective source for me

    Btw, he's definitely not a friend of Beijing...



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,970 ✭✭✭Christy42


    Well it seems to be causing internal issues in Russia while they hold it so it seems to be effective. Russia seems to have seen it as a nice easy PR win that has gone bad so now they have to shovel men into it or appear weak.


    Aside from that I guess they figured they kill Russian troops effectively there. If they give up then those Russian troops will be deployed elsewhere. Certainly many of the deaths may be conscripts but Ukraine was likely going to have to deal with those units at some point so this works.



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