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You've been looking in the wrong direction, the dangers are coming from the Left - read OP

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭tesla_newbie


    Thatcher hardly brought any death at all , she had no understanding of Northern Ireland but was a terrific champion of individual merit and a great Cold War warrior



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    When the East India existed was this not capitalism? I know they used to refer to mercantilism back then but they still had private enterprise and private property and multiple political parties so it does sound very close to modern captialism.

    And the nazi era germany economy had tonnes of private enterprise so although it had a war time economy it just seemed like you had to keep on the good side of the nazi party but they didnt control you.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,730 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    "The fact that they're are more akin to Fascism in operation alone means that Marx would have utterly rejected them..."

    "You'll now get a load of lies about how similar the Nazis were to the likes of the Soviets..."

    Make up your mind Tony.

    Glazers Out!



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    When people talk about the merits of either capitalism or communism, it refers to the modern era - i.e. roughly around and after 1800. That compares the development of free market capitalism with the varieties of socialism/communism that developed from the 1850s onward. It's a more valid comparison (just to add, mercantilism is the very opposite of free market capitalism).

    If you want to talk about empire and history, that's an entirely different question.

    Moreover, I'm more concerned about current threats from the left. I've already discussed what I believe to be one of the greatest threats from the left today - namely, intersectionality.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,697 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    That's just nonsense.

    Apart from the deaths caused by her heavy handedness up North, she also caused death and misery to her own mainland with her policies.

    People were killing themselves over economic reasons, the average lifespan i. Scotland for men shrunk by a year and a half. Alcohol consumption rose as people turned to drink to get by.

    I get that she wasn't literally ordering her army or police to round up people to kill them, but that's what her policies achieved.

    In fact, that's how capitalism generally kills, through policy and through making people poorer.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    Googling intersectionality it appears to be an obscure concept from 30 years ago with only a few entries from 2019. Very odd that you think the greatest current threat is this theory that most leftists on boards probably dont know the meaning of.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    A cursory glean of my earlier post clarifies that the impact of that ideology is extremely prevalent today.

    You're right that few people have heard the term. But most people would recognise the consequences of that ideology - not from 30-years ago when established in academia, but in the here and now.

    We even had a thread created the other day about the case of Neely being killed in a subway by a Marine officer. It is framed throughout much of the US, and by the OP of that thread, as the oppressed black man (Neely) killed by the white racist Marine officer - even though there is no evidence of racism.

    That incessant framing of matters in terms of identity characteristics is part of what intersectionality means. And just like that thread, and just like many other matters related to weaponised identity, it causes nothing but division in society. Look at how the so-called culture wars in the US is tearing the fabric of society apart, pitting one group against another.

    So yes, that kind of division poses a very serious threat - even if most people are unaware of the roots of this division nor what academic term describes it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    I think most threads in current affairs/after hours/politics including this one are divisive. Or perhaps they are just allowing differing opinions which is what free speech is all about and is not inherently bad.

    Im sure there are alot of left wing academic theories that are influencing public policy but the evidence for the influence of intersectionality seems pretty bare, and no i cant just take your word for it.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Every single aspect of the US culture wars is intersectionality in action.

    Every part.

    Deny this if you wish, but it's a solid fact.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    That is your opinion. Can you point to a periodical going into more detail on this theory.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,232 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    The likes of the East India Company is good example of Capitalism taken to a logical extremity. But all empire is capitalistic by its very nature and the nature of imperial capitalism generally didn't do any favours of the countries whose resources it raped. Of course now you'll be told that can't include empire in the conversation because certain posters will want to limit the discussion to just the 20th Century as the greater scope becomes uncomfortable for them and their petty politicking.

    As for Germany under the Nazis, Hitler actually reversed a lot of the nationalised programmes that the Weimar government enacted before the war even got going and during the war never made any moves to renationalise industries like, say, aircraft production, which always remained in private hands. Only Junkers was brought under direct party control and that was only the result of Hugo Junkers wife bequeathing the business to them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,232 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    @Danzy

    No but it was a relation,a little brother, a close ally at times and like dysfunctional couples they inevitably fell out.

    The more you try to spread this lie. The more desperate you seem.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,365 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    And you're surprised people misquote you?

    The British empire was Empire built on capitalism, operated free markets and existed for quiet a while post 1800. And also brought plenty of death.

    You also mentioned intersectionality before, and it was a load of waffle which you delined to clarify. We're talking people connecting on shared characteristics and ideas but you seemed to think that it encourages tribalism or pits people against each other, when in fact it does the exact opposite - it brings people together.

    So again, what is it about it that you find threatening?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,697 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    I have often found that deep down, people that have a problem with intersectionality, truly believe they are above certain people. That a social hierarchy exists and needs to exist, and if that is at the expense of some poor unfortunate, so be it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,365 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Not nessecarily poor, bur different. Different race, orientation, nationality - whatever.

    When you're priveleged, equity and equality are threats.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,697 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    I meant poor as in unlucky, unlucky to be born a different race/disabled/etc. Not just financially poor (but that too)



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's very hard on the one hand to take your points seriously when you refer to other posts as "waffle".

    On the intersectional point, it is a very well established theory, and was even discussed at the World Economic Forum. The people downplaying its role and pervasiveness either do not understand how spread it has become, or are pretending it doesn't exist (like the claim that cancel culture doesn't exist, or the claim earlier in this thread that communist states have never existed. It seems that just denying the existence of legitimate points is quite widespread. It's all a part of what some call Wokeness.

    And even people who do not know about intersectionality will be perfectly familiar with the following:

    • the ongoing obsession with race baiting in the US and elsewhere in the West
    • the current trend to stifle debate and discussion
    • cancel culture
    • the incessant accusation to others of words that end in either -ism or -phobia
    • the ongoing battle between trans rights and women's rights
    • accusations of white privilege
    • tearing down monuments and trying to re-write history
    • how all of the above has impacted comedy and other artists / the fear factor

    And so on...

    All of the above - and the above list is by no means exhaustive - is what I'm referring to; a toxic, divisiveness that has polluted and poisoned Western discourse over the past 5-years in particular.

    This particular image I found pretty much sums up how many far-left activists seek to divide and conquer.




  • Registered Users Posts: 82,510 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    That would make all your anti trans rhetoric intersectionality don’t look now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭tesla_newbie




  • Registered Users Posts: 33,365 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock



    Fair point, apologies about the "waffle" accusatrion, but the longer and more imprecise you posts, the more you'll find yourself misquoted. If I may make the observation, you have a habit of using five or six sentences when one wil do. And I'm gettting the (pehraps mistaken) impression you do it intentionally to muddy the waters.

    Anyway.

    I'm not denying intersectionality exists, and I think we're on the same-ish page as to what it is, I just think you see it as a threat because it's different and portraying unrelated problems in order to try and back it up.

    I'll take the first two: race-baiting. Race baiting is faused by fear and ignorance, like any other form of trolling.

    Cancel culture. cancel culture is a form of protest that passes into unofficial censorship. It's also caused by ignorance and an inability to reslolve conflict. Nor is it new - a certain Captain Boycott gave his name to the cancel culture back of the mid 1800s.

    It honestly sounds like you're saying "here's a problem I can blame on intersectionality" when in fact it's two groups just failing to talk to each other.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Konstantin Kisin is really coming into his own over the past couple of months. Just came across this footage of him on Bill Maher's show the other day, and he absolutely nails it.




  • Registered Users Posts: 33,365 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    I've no idea who he is or what he's saying or how it challenges the points I made in responce to you, so can we stick to one topic at a time?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,321 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ....ah no, it really is backed by plenty of data and research from respected sources to boot....

    ...ah hes not really.....



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,826 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    The body count doesn't lie.


    Fascists target specific groups, Communism's strength is it targets everyone, a loyal party member or their family is as likely to get a bullet or be starved as any opponent.


    Maybe if fascism lasted it would reach the level of slaughter and degradation of human rights and dignity that Communists achieved.


    Thankfully it was beaten, now time to finish off the big red brother.


    Which side of the Fascist/Communist family are you currently on?


    Germany was in trouble early on in ww2, it was winning in Poland but the Polish were burning through German Armour at an incredible rate. That's when solidarity was applied and your lot came to the rescue, splitting the Polish forces and breaking them.


    Together the fascists and Communists rounded up Jews, political opponents, national opponents and lots of others.


    Treblinka and others, the Gulags in Siberia. The same savagery and evil, the same mindset drove both. Without Soviet help Germany might never have been in a position to implement the final solution. It certainly would have been delayed going into France.

    Most people reject those that did those things, suck it up. Never again comrade will ye get away with the likes of it. It's bad enough that ye downplay deny so many millions dead.


    A fascist is just a communist who likes fancy uniforms.


    It's like Holocaust denial with you, political inconvenient to accept your lot have killed so many. Not that there is a shortage of people on the left who want to minimize the Holocaust and who view the Jews as misery hogs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,365 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    A fascist is just a communist who likes fancy uniforms.

    Isn't fascist just a fascist who likes fancy uniforms....?

    Anyway, again - horseshoe poitics - the dnagers are coming from extremists.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭AnFearCeart


    Tell me the difference between an authoritarian leftist and an authoritarian rightist and I'll tell you the difference between an apple and an apple.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,462 ✭✭✭francois


    There are literally thousands of varieties of apples, just saying.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,232 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Your efforts to try and make out that the Nazis and Communists to be bedfellows will always be a lie. A lie you damn well know to be a lie.

    All through the history of both types of dictatorships, they were at each others throats. The likes of Nazism came into being as a response to the rise of Communist attitudes in Europe. The Nazis gained power because of a fear of the spread of Communism in Europe and from its very inception it hinged on an anti Communist set of beliefs. They were on the ballot box as the primary opposition to the likes of the left wing KPD and SPD. Everywhere the Nazis went they installed RIGHT WING proxies to discharge their deeds and they hunted down left wingers of all types. Every country they invaded they set up right wingers in power.

    Hitler, from the outset, made no secret that his No.1 enemy was Communism. Nazi propaganda warned of the Communist threat from Eastern Europe. His sent the Condor Legion to Spain to fight against Communists and Socialists during the Spanish Civil War. He launched the most devastating war the world has ever seen in 1941 in an effort to wipe out the USSR for fuck sake.

    But, of course, you know all of this. But you still persist in trying to spread a lie, because your petty politics makes you a liar.


    Together the fascists and Communists rounded up Jews, political opponents, national opponents and lots of others.

    The prime target for "rounding up" by Fascists and Nazis were Communists. The first people through the gates of Dachau were Communists. They were at the top of the list of enemies. And some of the most prominent Communists were Jews. It's one of the reasons why Hitler and the Nazis were so anti Communist and why they conflated Communism/Marxism into a "Jewish invention". Many Jews also remained loyal to Communism all the way through the war. They were entire brigades of Jewish Communist partisans operating all around west Russia. There were Jews involved in all facets of Soviet apparatus and the Nazis seized upon that make the claim that it was the Jews who were behind the "Communist threat".

    There was never time that Hitler didn't have the destruction of "Judeo Bolshevism" in mind, even when Molotov/Ribbetrop pact put an uneasy halt on their animosity for 22 months.

    Just because both types of dictatorships had enemies that they rounded up, doesn't make them the same thing no matter much you wish it were so.


    Most people reject those that did those things, suck it up. Never again comrade will ye get away with the likes of it. It's bad enough that ye downplay deny so many millions dead.



    It's like Holocaust denial with you, political inconvenient to accept your lot have killed so many. Not that there is a shortage of people on the left who want to minimize the Holocaust and who view the Jews as misery hogs.

    What an absolutely scurrilous effort.

    You should be ashamed of yourself.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    "Nazi Germany and Communist Russia were bedfellows but they actially hated each other so it doesnt count"

    Walking thought O'Connell street couldnt help but notice a half dozen left wing extremists waving communists flags outside the GPO, not a word in the media I'd warrant,again the most vile ideology in history is tolerated in Ireland.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    I think your answer is in the post its half a dozen people, so why would that be news worthy enough to report.

    To be honest i think we will see much more flags like that in Dublin on victory day itself



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