New Irish Rail Intercity, Commuter and DART Timetable Public Consultation

end of the road · 31-12-2022 6:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120050156#Comment_120050156

thanks for that, hard to know what the actual situation is to be honest.

the last time i had a look at the IE website they mentioned that only 56 of the ICR sets are in service when there are 63 sets i believe.

2 or 3 out at a time with one being a spares doner would make sense but 7 seems off even if it wouldn't surprise me one bit.

LXFlyer · 03-01-2023 2:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120050156#Comment_120050156

Five sets in daily service, one in maintenance plus one as cover adds up to seven sets.

That leaves only one set potentially not in use?

It sounds like they’re not including the maintenance cover in the fleet numbers.

trellheim · 03-01-2023 3:29pm

Yes, this is what I had thought. It didnt square with page 1 "full fleet utilisation"

LXFlyer · 03-01-2023 3:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120059986#Comment_120059986

As I said the maintenance sets should be included in the fleet numbers as they are part of the operational fleet.

“Full fleet utilisation” will always include the maintenance sets.

patrickc · 03-01-2023 11:54pm

I got the new Carlow 10.10 service this morning, people were standing from Kildare on.

the 18.35 had people standing too, seats empty with names over them but noone on them.

Jamie2k9 · 04-01-2023 1:05am

The IV fleet historically had 6 units in serivce. That leaves another set that could be available and 1 set under heavy maintenance.

The real issue is at times of peak travel you have ICRs at peak times heading to Cork which is unacceptable. I mean should the 19:00 on Fridays really be an 7 ICR just one example. I understand there will be a method to wider rostering of that ICR however I also think many other servies on a Friday could use that capacity.

Then you also see ICRs subbing even during peak travel times if a IV fails.

trellheim · 04-01-2023 1:45am

The real issue is at times of peak travel you have ICRs at peak times heading to Cork which is unacceptable. I mean should the 19:00 on Fridays really be an 7 ICR just one example.

This was kind of my point - the set is probably better off to Waterford for example.

LXFlyer · 04-01-2023 12:11pm

Apparently, having asked some people more in the know than I, there is a modification programme of some sort for the Mark 4 fleet ongoing, which means that one set is out of service at any given time.

Hence the need for additional ICRs on Dublin/Cork at the moment.

bikeman1 · 04-01-2023 1:48pm

07:00/10:25/14:00/17:25. Start Dublin finish Dublin.
08:00/11:25/15:00/18:25. Start Dublin finish Dublin.
09:00/12:25/17:00/20:25. Start Dublin finish Dublin.
Ety Cork - Mallow, 08:00 Mallow - Cork / 09:25/13:00/16:00. Start Cork finish Dublin.
07:00 ex Cork / 11:00/14:25/18:00. Start Cork finish Cork.
Maint spare / 19:00 to Cork. Start Dublin finish Cork.
Completely spare set, believed to be under mods.
There should be another full set parked up.
Three spare carriages.

8 x 8 = 64 plus 3 spare = 67 vehicles. There are 8 DVT, diners and 1st class.

There is a huge under utilisation of the MKIV fleet, both in diagramming and sets in traffic.

trellheim · 04-01-2023 2:31pm

There is a huge under utilisation of the MKIV fleet, both in diagramming and sets in traffic.

Agreed

That was what I was trying to say

LXFlyer · 04-01-2023 3:05pm

They’re the old rosters from what I can tell.

But suffice to say, I think it would be reasonable to expect 6 sets rostered for service, one rostered as cover in the event of a failure, and one then in for maintenance.

Ireland trains · 04-01-2023 4:09pm

could IE not just reduce the turnaround time at both ends as surely 30 minuets is sufficient.

Then only 6 sets would be required

bikeman1 · 04-01-2023 7:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120064585#Comment_120064585

Sorry one mistake, the 08:00 is not MkIV anymore and the 11:25 ex Cork.

Ex Dublin;

07:00/09:00/11:00/13:00/14:00/15:00/17:00/18:00 and 19:00 are MkIV. With a switch on a Friday to the 19:00 being ICR and 21:00 being MK IV

The double set that goes down on the 21:00, splits and does the 05:45 (4 ICR) and 06:15 (3 ICR) express.

08:00, 10:00, 12:00, 16:00 and 21:00 are ICR.

Sunday’s are practically all MkIV.

You can work out what is what by the seat planner. You’ll see the ICR plan or MkIV plan when going to pick a seat.

Also, the “quieter” carriage lists the MkIV trains https://www.irishrail.ie/en-ie/news/quieter-carriages-to-be-provided-on-heuston-to-cor

So a very poor utilisation of sets.

Set 7, was the standby set as it only comes out at 19:00. This is now set 6. So they have one full spare MkIV and better links could free an ICR out.

There should also be an 06:00 ex Dublin to make it to Cork for business Mon-Fri

trellheim · 05-01-2023 2:24pm

if they freed the 7th you could do all the turns as MK14 by the look of it and free that 7 up to do 2xextra waterfords as a 3 and 4

bikeman1 · 05-01-2023 10:52pm

The thing at the moment is the 06:15 express which comes up as 3 ICR. There should be a balancing express back down to balance that move.

trellheim · 06-01-2023 11:07am

there's a big gaping 20:00 empty slot for it to leave Heuston and by the time it gets back the next morning - the 0615 is timed in at 0830 it could be the 0900 or 1000 outbound set. Hence freeing up the 2nd ICR.

bikeman1 · 06-01-2023 11:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120072719#Comment_120072719

Yes, a 20:00 express 3 ICR to Cork would fill that gap nicely and a set should be free at that stage to do so (the current 21:00 3 ICR). Then revert the 21:00 to MkIV everyday with better diagramming. That would plug a gap in the 19:00 - 21:00 section. Give people a fast option to get to Cork after an early evening in Dublin and also an hour later departure for the last train ex Dublin for the Cobh & Midleton lines (the 21:00 misses the last trains in Cork). The final bonus would be extra capacity on the 05:45 ex Cork.

The 4 ICR freed up by not going down to Cork on the 21:00 and back on the 05:45, will with the new centre cars become 6 ICR, which I'm sure the people on the Waterford line would love to boost capacity with a later evening train to Waterford (don't forget the last train to KK & Waterford is at 18:35!!!) and an additional up train in the morning to provide a huge capacity boost (between the 06:50 and 07:50 from Waterford).

p_haugh · 06-01-2023 3:01pm

I'd imagine that potential 20:00 weekday service from Connolly to Gorey mentioned in the timetable changes is dependant on the new ICR carriages coming in to service in the new year? Or is it a case of driver shortages?

trellheim · 06-01-2023 3:07pm

if you look at the response to the consultation most of it ="driver shortages"

TranslatorPS · 06-01-2023 5:16pm

Amusingly enough the 8pm Gorey service is timed and printed in the Dec'22 WTT, just not marked as operating regularly. A Connolly 20.05 departure for a 21.59 Gorey arrival, which would then form a 22.25 Gorey/Connolly, with a 24.08 arrival, all timed for a single 29000 - the working can be attached to the end of an existing 29000 diagram, merely increasing the mileage in the existing number of sets.

Economics101 · 06-01-2023 5:27pm

I think that the lower utilization of the MkIV fleet is related to the closure of the Heuston Valeting shed, which used to handle MkIV maintenance overnight. This is now done at Inchicore, and may not involve as much overnight staff, so some MkIVs will not be available due to daytime maintenance.

I think that this kicked in around 2009/10, at the time of the economic crash.

Jamie2k9 · 08-05-2023 1:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120074776#Comment_120074776

Starts 22nd May according to IE.

The return as a scheduled working should really make the case for the Mullingar one.

https://twitter.com/IrishRail/status/1655546888995713025?s=20

p_haugh · 08-05-2023 2:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120569722#Comment_120569722

Just came on to post this 😅

Glad to see some later service along the Rosslare corridor past Greystones!

loyatemu · 08-05-2023 2:35pm

it's an improvement, though 8pm is still pretty poor for a last service.

p_haugh · 08-05-2023 4:29pm

Oh indeed, but it's a start at least

LXFlyer · 08-05-2023 6:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120569722#Comment_120569722

The Mullingar one is tricky as the set returns non-stop to Dublin to operate the 23:40 Pearse-Dundalk, and has a tight turnaround.

You couldn't add stops en route which passengers would want.

LXFlyer · 08-05-2023 6:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120570253#Comment_120570253

Given the ongoing shortage of drivers, I think that to be fair it's great that the first additional service to the timetable is on the southeast line.

It's also a bonus that it returns in service, which it couldn't if it were any later as the city centre stations would be closed.

As I posted before, increases in the timetabled services will be on an incremental basis as new additional drivers pass out, and I think it's a case of having to be patient.

loyatemu · 09-05-2023 9:38am

One bonus is that it provides an extra service back into Dublin from Bray/Greystones/Dun Laoghaire after the last Dart.

TranslatorPS · 10-05-2023 9:40am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120571462#Comment_120571462

Exactly – there are 6 minutes for the turnaround in both Mullingar (22.17–22.23) and Pearse (23.34–23.40) :)

bikeman1 · 10-05-2023 10:05am

It's great to see this service coming on stream. The driver situation is working through. Plenty of classes in the school at different stages, which will be coming on stream. There remains a shortage due to long term illness and retirements plus a heavy reliance on rest day working, but they are getting on top of it at last.

With every hop the next timetable consultation will be able to actually deliver more of what people have been asking for.

Noxegon · 26-05-2023 9:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119988147#Comment_119988147

Kildare service is solid from Mon-Fri.

I hold out some hope that they'll start running the Hazelhatch/Grand Canal Dock trains on a weekend – if they do I'll be better able to leave the car at home.

LXFlyer · 26-05-2023 10:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120644751#Comment_120644751

They will happen eventually, once enough new drivers pass out - it just takes time (over a year) to train up new drivers, and they are gradually introducing new services across the network on a phased basis.

trellheim · 26-05-2023 10:13pm

I have noticed in recent times the trains are far more rammed all day long. I had the misfortune to get the 3:20 or thereabouts back from Kilkenny to Dublin on Tuesday which amazingly was a 3ICR for comedy clown car purposes. It is not the midst of COVID anymore. I noticed several MK4s lying idle ( well over a full set ) in Inchicore as I went past - time to get the finger out and run the spares and repurpose the ICRs to where needed.

end of the road · 26-05-2023 10:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120645065#Comment_120645065

agree but we know they won't do that.

they have their regime in terms of rolling stock operations and diagramming and they will not change from it at any and all costs even though it is causing huge issues.

we are wasting our time, they know best in their imaginations.

LXFlyer · 27-05-2023 12:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120645065#Comment_120645065

The reality is that the Mark 4 sets did not lived up to what was promised by CAF, and they need far more maintenance than originally planned.

From conversations that I've had, it would seem that the full service proved too intense for them. So there is going to have to be a mix of ICR and Mark 4 sets in service on Dublin/Cork, plus you are NEVER going to have all the sets in service on a daily basis - you have to allow for maintenance.

There are currently five Mark 4 sets in daily service, plus one as cover, and one in maintenance. That leaves one further set in maintenance and three spare standard coaches. They swap over, so no sets are lying idle for extended periods.

That being said, the 41 intermediate coaches for the ICRs are being delivered, and I believe that the first re=formed set will enter service by the end of the year. That will lead to more longer trains being available.

In the meantime, the fleet controller (a thankless job!) has to also cope with several ICRs being out of service covering the fuel trials and the testing of the re-formed sets with the new coaches.

trellheim · 28-05-2023 2:37pm

But they have had years (since the financial crisis) to work through the MKIV issues. It beggars belief that a full extra set cant be found to run a service . According to what you say above of 8 full sets thats only 5 in service at any time which is nearly 40% of the fleet out at any given time - which is dire.

Also keeping a full set spare/cover is ridiculous - a 5 ICR kept spare would be better is its more versatile and can cover against nearly any type of set failure on all the routes. Something else going on I'd say here.

LXFlyer · 29-05-2023 2:30pm

I had a slight brain fade on Saturday - one set at any time is currently out of service due to a modification programme to the Mark 4 sets.

When that programme finishes, it’ll be back to 6/8 sets in daily service.

As for using ICRs - there aren’t really any spare going given the two modification programmes.

bikeman1 · 29-05-2023 4:05pm

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The utilisation of the MkIV fleet is way below par. They do use them and work great (I'm a regular user on them) and are put on top link jobs, just they are not diagrammed anyway enough.

One of those sets comes out to play for the 19:00 Dublin Heuston to Cork and that's it for the day. One set is out for modifications, which is fine but they have another set available too. The 19:00 was the "spare" set on maintenance during the day.

I would also like to see a MkIV set head to Tralee each day or Limerick on one of the directs to free up an ICR that way. Think outside the box kind of thing.

bikeman1 · 29-05-2023 4:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120654561#Comment_120654561

07:00/10:25/14:00/17:25. Start Dublin finish Dublin.
09:00/12:25/17:00/20:25. Start Dublin finish Dublin.
15:00/18:25. Start Dublin finish Dublin.
Ety Cork - Mallow, 08:00 Mallow - Cork / 09:25/13:00/16:00. Start Cork finish Dublin.
07:00 ex Cork / 11:00/14:25/18:00. Start Cork finish Cork.
Maint spare / 19:00 to Cork. Start Dublin finish Cork.
Completely spare set, believed to be under mods.
There should be another full set parked up.
Three spare carriages.

8 x 8 = 64 plus 3 spare = 67 vehicles. There are 8 DVT, diners and 1st class.

There is a huge under utilisation of the MKIV fleet, both in diagramming and sets in traffic.

Ireland trains · 29-05-2023 4:53pm

Would a 30 minute turnaround (assuming 2h 30 min travel) be too tight at either end. Would allow xx:00 departures at both end and result in less sets being required.

If not now, then surely as line improvement works reduce journey time.

LXFlyer · 29-05-2023 6:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120654718#Comment_120654718

It would be yes. Remember you need the up and down trains to meet at Limerick Junction to offer connections in and out of Limerick.

road_high · 30-05-2023 5:30pm

Waterford line could really do with a later service now. Ie extend the later one from Carlow.

Jamie2k9 · 02-06-2023 5:44pm

Extra x2 daily Dublin-Belfast Thu-Sat and x1 daily Sun from 8 June-3 September. Appears to be the first joint operation in a while, previos summer additions were booking from NI only.

Dep Belfast 09:33 and 21:06 Sun 17:05

Dep Dublin 12:21 and 18:00 Sun 13:00

https://twitter.com/IrishRail/status/1664665846717743111

Mr rebel · 03-06-2023 12:38am

Not sure if this is the appropriate thread but I just went to book online the Killarney to Cork train for tomorrow morning and not only is it sold out, but this message is showing up with it;

”Customers are advised that if this service is not available online, it is sold out and as a result tickets will not be available for purchase at the station.”

First time ever seeing this message. So if I turn up at the station tomorrow morning and buy a ticket from the machine, I’m going to be denied boarding?!

LXFlyer · 03-06-2023 2:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120672341#Comment_120672341

Edited - yes as below - it’s a VERY busy weekend.

Jamie2k9 · 03-06-2023 9:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120672441#Comment_120672441

Given its a busy weekend with Bloom IE are fully entitled to enforce online only access to services. While they often put the message up I am not sure it's ever enforced in practice.

Unless you know more and IE have badly worded it.

New Irish Rail Intercity, Commuter and DART Timetable Public Consultation

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