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Race Horse Deaths

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    #62
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574526#Comment_120574526

    I just don’t find your impression of a horse living 25-30 years in the wild to be credible, you paint it like some hellscape where their every waking moment is in fear of being eaten alive by wolves or falling down a ditch.

    Here’s some palate cleanser for that monotonous view:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWqQQ7PBr0U




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    #63
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Another non financially viable industry propped up by the tax payer.

    Is everyone really happy paying taxes to keep greyhound and horse racing going ?

    Wasting taxpayers money just so bookies can continue to take money from degenerate gamblers.

    Both those ‘industries’ exist to exploit degenerate gamblers and it’s very sad that anyone defends it.



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    #64
    Backstreet Moyes
    Registered Users Posts: 8,791 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574434#Comment_120574434

    If you don't have the intellect to post sources for your claims then why did you post them.

    Its not upto me to find sources for your claims.

    So work away and throw them up seems its so easy to look them up.



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    #65
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574535#Comment_120574535

    Well this is a forum where debates happen. If you can’t play to a basic standard of evidence, ie. Playing with no goalpost whatsoever, then you’re just flinging poo (QED the digs at another user).



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    #66
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,443 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574399#Comment_120574399

    not quite what i was saying, but how and ever.

    'not having bred a horse specifically to run in races' is not a moral outrage, or morally anything. it's morally neutral, a null proposition.

    a farmer, for example, who for whatever reason, chooses not to breed from his ewes one specific year, is not 'guilty' of negation of the existence of animals to be bred for the plate.

    and i don't think the animal lovers AGM would take a stance of 'no, you should have bred those animals whose treatment we have issues with'; or else i'm not sure what point you're making there?



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    #67
    lmao10
    Registered Users Posts: 1,130 ✭✭✭lmao10


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574616#Comment_120574616

    The debates are pointless though. If you want to engage with them then fair enough. I'm putting out my own posts my own way. I'm mainly thinking about people who don't post but read and have a similar mindset to myself. Not interested in wasting my time with the far right incels personally but someone has to keep them in check I guess so fair play to you.



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    #68
    growleaves
    Registered Users Posts: 7,857 ✭✭✭growleaves


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574635#Comment_120574635

    What does race horse deaths have to do with left-wing/right-wing squabbles? Do you just mentally mark anything you don't agree with as far-right?



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    #69
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 29,549 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574539#Comment_120574539

    Where did I say anything about horses in the wild living for 25 years?

    You don't seem to be responding to the actual points put to you.

    But now that you mention it - typically they don't. Their lifespan is shorted than that of domesticated horses. So think about why they don't live that long and how their lives end.

    Now, think back to when there was less human interference in their environment, and more predators.

    They were not living in some utopia. They die of disease, starvation, falls, accidents, and predators. We can reasonably assume they will have been stressed before those events, looking for food, fleeing from predators, or storms.

    But that is still 'living'.

    If that is 'living' for horses, then as far as I'm concerned then race horses live as horses. And if you ban horse racing, you will deny that living to significant numbers of horses.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #70
    lmao10
    Registered Users Posts: 1,130 ✭✭✭lmao10


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574675#Comment_120574675

    Posters who post far right sympathising on other threads are actually posters who post far right sympathising in general. They aren't worth debating from my point of view but others can waste their time if they want. Sorry if pointing that out upsets you.



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    #71
    growleaves
    Registered Users Posts: 7,857 ✭✭✭growleaves


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574683#Comment_120574683

    I'd like to know what that has to do with race horse deaths, if anything.



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    #72
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574678#Comment_120574678

    most sources say 25-30 years some say wild mustangs 15. Seabiscuit died at 14. From a heart attack..

    back to bastarders argument, not breeding horses is not a crime against humanity.

    the horses I showed off in my palate cleanser video for you were not diseased, or starved, or scared, or stressed out. But you persist with your monotone that life before being domesticated by humans was some living nightmare we can’t ethically put them through or something.



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    #73
    lmao10
    Registered Users Posts: 1,130 ✭✭✭lmao10


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574702#Comment_120574702

    I was just explaining why I wasn't engaging with the other poster. They have shown that it's pointless to engage with them. I was just answering what I was asked if you read back.



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    #74
    growleaves
    Registered Users Posts: 7,857 ✭✭✭growleaves


    I see Overheal has started another thread about race....horses😂



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    #75
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574718#Comment_120574718

    Omfg I see what you did here



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    #76
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 29,549 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574711#Comment_120574711

    You have no idea from that video what state they were in, or what was happening when the camera wasn't running.

    You continually run away from the points put to you -> how do wild horses die? are they hunted by predators? do they sometimes have difficulty finding food? You are the one who seems to think their deaths in a race is some huge injustice, and yet their deaths in the wild seem potentially even more painful and distressing for them.

    Your video is no way refutes that and cannot.

    So again, you present a false choice. The 82,000 or whatever race horses aren't going to face that wild life. They will cease to exist in the next generation, they won't become wild horses, or trail horses.

    I am pointing out that banning horse racing will lead to a significant reduction in the number of horses alive over the coming generations.

    They won't be put through some living nightmare, because they just won't be alive to experience anything.

    This does not seem preferable to me than having a chance at existence through horse racing.

    So where did I say "life before being domesticated by humans was some living nightmare we can’t ethically put them through or something."

    Well, find me that post? Go on.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #77
    Backstreet Moyes
    Registered Users Posts: 8,791 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574635#Comment_120574635

    Just the same as every other thread, soundbites, far right incel etc with an inability to debate a point.

    I am sure everyone is delighted that you referring to me as a right wing incel is keeping me in check.

    Reported for attacking a poster and off topic posting.

    I am not as big of an Internet hardman as yourself so il try ask the mods to keep you in check on my behalf.



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    #78
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574810#Comment_120574810

    You continually run away from the points put to you -> how do wild horses die? are they hunted by predators? do they sometimes have difficulty finding food? You are the one who seems to think their deaths in a race is some huge injustice, and yet their deaths in the wild seem potentially even more painful and distressing for them.

    Their death in the wild is not a human made problem though. It’s a natural course of life. Selective breeding for horse racing, jockeys crops and steroids, is not natural.

    They won't be put through some living nightmare, because they just won't be alive to experience anything

    you’re just doubling down on your position that you claim from there I need to prove? That you have a distorted, monotonous, apoplectic view of horses living freely in the wild.



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    #79
    lmao10
    Registered Users Posts: 1,130 ✭✭✭lmao10


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574834#Comment_120574834

    Yep. Another point is that the majority of these horses are off to the slaughter house after their career so it's not exactly the nicest death either.



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    #80
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574886#Comment_120574886

    And that career is over by about age 9 on average according to various sources. Not 15 not 25 not 30.



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    #81
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 29,549 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574834#Comment_120574834

    Hold on a minute, this is what was asked of you. It was your claim not mine.

    So where did I say "life before being domesticated by humans was some living nightmare we can’t ethically put them through or something."

    Well, find me that post? Go on.

    You ran away from that challenge.

    So now you expect another poster to prove to you they didn't say the lie you made up about them!!!

    Absolute nonsense. A blatant deflection and smokescreen.

    Your argument is now utterly without foundation.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #82
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574901#Comment_120574901

    It wasn’t a direct quote. No punctuation denoting a quote either. Therefore I did not misattribute any quote to you. That is my own characterization of your arguments, that you are trying to paint such a bleak view of wild horse life that why shouldn’t anyone want them bred selectively for racing where they can die in pain for our amusement.



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    #83
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 29,549 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574948#Comment_120574948

    This was what you wrote:

     But you persist with your monotone that life before being domesticated by humans was some living nightmare we can’t ethically put them through or something.

    I didn't say it directly or indirectly.

    You're not engaging in good faith with the points put to you, but inventing positions.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #84
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574965#Comment_120574965

    Your position is very anti wild life for horses because of how bleak it is etc for them no? That if they aren’t selectively bred for racing they wouldn’t exist and if they did they’d be riddled with starvation, disease, fear from predators and ditches.



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    #85
    thegame983
    Registered Users Posts: 913 ✭✭✭thegame983


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574965#Comment_120574965

    You should cut Overheal some slack. He's got about a dozen threads on the go at the same time.



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    #86
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 29,549 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575014#Comment_120575014

    If they weren't bred for racing they wouldn't exist in the numbers they currently do.

    A significant number of horses over the coming generations who would not exist. I'm not sure of the exact figure but let's say it is 10,000 here and 80,000 in the US, more in other horse racing countries.

    They aren't going to live a wild life. Hundreds of thousands of them just aren't going to live at all, over time millions of them.

    How is pointing that out "anti wild life" ???

    Animals in the wild die from disease, starvation... they are predated upon. They die in accidents and natural disasters. They may sometimes struggle to find food, flee predators or live with untreated wounds from injuries or predation attempts.

    How is pointing that out "anti wild life" ??? It is what it is.

    It is not "anti" wild life - it is wild life, warts and all. You were the one who said "call that a living" about race horses.

    So my response is - the wild life was a living for horses. Life as a race horse is a living too. It has the ups and downs of life and existence and eventual death. In terms of what the horses are put through, in terms of what it means to be alive as a horse - it is comparable. In some respects race horses may have it easier.

    So no, I haven't seen any argument on the thread so far that leads me to think banning horse racing is warranted, or a "good thing" ultimately for horses.

    Obviously your opinion is otherwise, and that's ok. Reasonable people can disagree on such values(?).

    But what I think is lacking in your position is an understanding of what such a ban would mean in terms of numbers of horses in existence.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #87
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575080#Comment_120575080

    I see, let me clear I'm under no illusion that phasing out horse racing would lead to an increase in the horse population, nor even necessarily a flat null change in the horse population. Going back to the example another person gave about siring a Ewe though, breeding horses for racing itself isn't 'warranted' by anything, there's no death count on someone who retires from horse breeding etc. just as I'm sure people who wish to ban the pit bull are not under the illusion that will result in a dearth of pit bulls existing and living good lives etc. with no measurable increase in the dog population.



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    #88
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 29,549 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575149#Comment_120575149

    A flat null change? No measurable increase?

    It would mean less horses. An entire paragraph and still you can't bring yourself to accept that point but instead dance around it.

    Are you prepared to argue for a ban in horse racing even if it means hundreds of thousands fewer in existence over the next generation? If you are say so.

    At least be honest in what you are arguing for.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #89
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users Posts: 7,552 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574541#Comment_120574541

    I'm not going to go into the rest of the debate, but this is very much untrue. Racing is worth billions to the Irish economy and is in no way propped up by the tax payer. There may be an investment in it, but that is only because the returns are much greater with a higher investment. Racing would still exist without government funding, but the economy would face a major loss.



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    #90
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575171#Comment_120575171

    Hundreds of thousands I think not, but sure over some generations who cares. There are millions of domesticated horses, a very slim percentage of them are actually engaged in horse racing. Race horse riding makes up just 2% of the US horse industry. https://www.ridewithequo.com/blog/the-horse-industry-by-the-numbers

    There will still be plenty of horses in existence don't you worry. Just like dogs didn't disappear when we banned dog fights.



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    #91
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 29,549 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575230#Comment_120575230

    If you add up all the race horses around the world Ireland, UK, France, Australia, Middle East you will easily get into hundreds of thousands.

    I thought you cared about horses and their existence.

    If it's only 2% why do we care about what happens regardless.

    You care about them as 2% when they are raced.

    But apparently if it's caring about whether that 2% lives or not... your answer is "who cares".

    So we've established you don't care if your proposal leads to fewer horses in existence.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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