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Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    Well we factually can't field an army or airforce big enough to realistically defend ourselves, we are in the eyes of everyone with a military a non factor.

    Protect it's people from who exactly ? To what extent are they to protect us exactly ? Nuclear detterance? Massive land army, navy and airforce just hanging around waiting to "protect" us is it?

    It's utter nonsense it really is.


    The reality is the need isn't there, if we needed a serious military as badly as you are implying then we d have one but we don't need it. So we don't have one.

    Justify your call for an expensive fleet of jets with realistic scenarios and examples of our need of em.



  • Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    And again read what you are posting we are and this is a fact..

    A neutral country.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,143 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997




  • Registered Users Posts: 12,143 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I don't think you read it. Saying your neutral while not acting like your neutral is completely meaningless.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    So your declaring Ireland is not a neutral country.

    You believe this is a fact yeah ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    Looks like our inability to field proper naval and air assets is having a devastating effect on our country...oh wait...


    They should do a simulation on the likelyhood of such a ridiculous scenario.

    They should do one on our inability to defend against a single ICBM too for good measure...



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,143 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997



    I said it was meaningless. You can say your points are factually correct. That doesn't make them so.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,143 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    For someone complaining about realistic issues, when presented with real world issues, your argument collapsed screaming to ICBMs in embarrassing haste. You're hitting every branch on the factually incorrect tree today. Was it worth the re-reg for that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    So is Ireland a neutral country or not ?

    I'm interested to hear your answer as it's a straight forward yes or no answer.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    I don't think there's any point talking to you at this point as you seem set in your opinion of Ireland's urgent need to militarize.

    Our need for defense from ICBMs is about as realistic as our need for serious air defence.

    But anyway the good news is there is thankfully some people with common sense in power and there is 0 urgency in wasting money on these nonsensical endeavours to satisfy the top gun fans.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,104 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Of course we feckin aren't.

    Go give your head a wobble and inform yourself.

    Just listen to Varadkar and Martin's pronouncements since the beginning of the invasion of Ukraine; 'we cannot be politically neutral' or words to that effect. And I hate to be the one to break it to you, but neutrality is political as well as military. Without either its redundant.

    What Ireland is, is militarily non-aligned and even that is an increasingly untenable description, as our own territorial and infrastructural sovereignty is threatened by actors of malign intent and we must seek assistance from Countries with whom we already have an intimate cultural and economic relationship.

    Your posts show that you have essentially no knowledge of political and practical developments around the issue of national defence in Ireland over the past 9 years, in the aftermath of the Crimea annexation, the rise of China and Brexit.

    The Tánaiste's combined Departments are hosting nationwide consultative fora on Ireland's international security policy next month, details are here, maybe think about going along. I certainly am.




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭sparky42


    To be honest it shows a lack of understanding of Irish FP pretty much all the way to WW2, we have never been “neutral”, we have always been ProWestern/Allies with huge “back room” deals as seen in the last week. The idea of us being “neutral” is laughable, particularly as to be neutral we should have the capability to deny our nation/sea/airspace to any third party that might be at war, something we don’t because of those who keep screaming the loudest about “neutrality” without actually wanting the ability to enforce it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,143 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    We are already militarized. We an army, navy and air force. Not very informed. Incidentally Top Gun is for the Navy. No one other you is proposing Naval Fighters. Or defense against ICBMs. You've literally invented a load of stuff so you can argue against yourself.



  • Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    Defence against ICBMs is just a plausible as you using the excuse of the Russians as a reason for us to get fighter jets. Seeing as you keep missing it, the point im making is both are needless.

    Well done on taking the top gun reference literally as well.



  • Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    Can always count on boards for a good laugh, RTE should pick up on this and declare our neutrality void as the lads on boards have said so...

    This the same lad you were quoting?

    And its gas you decided to quote him loosely and use "words to that effect" because if you quoted him directly that's not at all the intention behind what he said. I know the speech you are trying to reference.


    Right this minute Ireland is a neutral country that is our official stance this is a FACT.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,143 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Its yet another example of you being factually wrong. In addition, there are no viable fighter launched anti ICBM weapons.

    Since you (not I) keep bringing it up , Russians are credible threat to air navigation and commercial flights as they are often flying without transponders.





  • Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    Do explain to me how we will forcibly stop Russia from flying thru our airspace, walk me thru the scenario. Id be awful interested to hear what you lads think will happen when we get jets and worse again get into a situation with the potential to use them.

    Ye want to talk about Crimea and politics ye would do well to heed whats happened to Ukraine's civilians and cities, because thats what you would be asking for it would be our cities that the missiles would be slamming into it would be your houses and families that could be killed or injured in strikes, the so called experts are great for picking fights without much thought to finishing em.

    Its a simple question what do we do when we have used the jets you lot are roaring for we are militarily non aligned so no protection from NATO you lot are completely against aid from the UK. It has been argued on here that the US and UK would not intervene to help Ireland (which is nonsense but anyways).

    We have fired the shot and downed a Russian aircraft that disobeyed Irish requests whats next lads?



  • Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    Ok grand there a credible threat, you have been granted 30 fighter jets, the russians arent responding do we fire? if we do and down there aircraft what do we do then? We would now be in open conflict with Russia. But we have dealt with the threat.

    Interested to see how you think this will play out



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,663 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    "Policies" that aren't reviewed on the regular/Problems that are let linger on, end up causing a headache further down the line, and the longer it isn't reviewed/fixed, the worse it gets.

    Recent developments in Ukraine have shown that Europe isn't as peachy as we all believed. And now it's not not entirely out of the question that our country may need to defend itself in the not so distant future. (By defend I mean for example not allowing Bombers from one country to fly through our airspace to attack our neighbor)

    I think the issue is not that we don't have/cant afford expensive military equipment, It's the Kleptocracy and Nepotism that exist in every organization in Ireland, including the defense forces. I get some people feel that the defense forces are one of the most upstanding organisations on the Island, but recent documentaries have shown that that's just not true.

    Tackling the "who you know" BS and Rip Off prices sub contracted agencies charge in Ireland, needs to be tackled first before any huge purchase of equipment like this could happen. Example: A hanger to house a plane that would normally cost Y would now cost Y x5. Cost of a runway would be way higher etc. All because sun contractors know there is money knocking about and they're gonna gouge the price as much as they can and deliver the absolute minimum (celtic tiger era crap apartments come to mind, there's not reason to believe supporting infra for fighter aircraft would be any different). Usually the person on the board of the sub contracting agency is "plays golf" with the local politician.

    I believe this is the reason all sorts of infra projects are not moving in Ireland, not just military related ones.

    And this has been an issue in Ireland for longer than the 70 years mentioned in the article. I've not idea how to tackle it.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    Are you people for real ? "Not allowing enemy bombers to fly to targets in the UK" how do you plan on stopping em chief? shoot em down is it? lol

    Meanwhile the RAF with its top notch 130ish advanced fighters is super grateful to its savior Ireland with its 16 odd f15's. lmao

    The logic is hilarious or the lack of it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭sparky42


    First off, do you really think such issues only exist in Ireland? Hell we’re below average compared to some EU nations let alone regimes like Russia, second we are talking about defence related issues, backhanders and trade offs are par for the course for pretty much very nation in that regards (some are better at hiding it than others) but since we don’t even have a domestic defence industry we just end up screwed anyway both by that lack, and by the weaknesses of the DOD procurement team.

    As for issues in the wider economy, that’s more to do with the fact that we are effectively at full economic employment in the economy and absolutely within the Construction sector meaning it doesn’t really matter how much money you throw at things, it can’t be spent.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,663 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    The fact UK needs to defend Irish airspace as a proxy to defending itself is the issue. Not how many planes they or we have. Like if the UK decided to just stop intercepting Russian planes and just left them fly across Ireland (up as far as the Irish Sea). We'd probably be unaffected initially, but long term, how do you think that might play out?

    Fully agree with you!

    However I believe our population density relative to our peers in the EU combined with the fact we are an island nation exasperates issue. Not to mention our expectations on any Project X given the level of development our country is at.

    Like we have just 4 very big civil engineering, 2 electro mechanical and 1 Process engineering companies here. We're kinda at the mercy of these guys if we need a project done.



  • Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    They arent going to stop though out of self preservation alone they will keep doing it, they would probably be on standby regardless of if we have an airforce or not.

    I just dont see why our first port of call is fighter jets, its a very childish and naïve solution, with limited thought and mostly wanted because of the "cool" factor. There isnt much thought given to the consequences of using these weapons, especially on nations like Russia, i bet everyone roaring for jets wouldn't be as quick about it if missiles started raining down in response to us shooting down a Russians aircraft. The cool factor would be gone fairly quick when family members are dead because of a bombing in retaliation to the downing of there aircraft.

    Its not a game, and there is no point sending up jets unless we are willing to use them, which in this case the cure would be far worse than the poison. I'd sooner let em fly harmlessly over rather than force conflict out of ego. What are they gonna see anyway? nothing its Ireland.



  • Registered Users Posts: 238 ✭✭mupper2


    A couple of years ago Turkey shot down a russian Su-24 get in their airspace...russia did *checks notes*...nothing.

    But beside that scenario how does ever other grown up country manage this but some how we can't because someone might get mad at us for doing what almost every other country does....



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Agree with you, one of the things “forgotten” during the Crash when everyone was cursing everything to do with construction was exactly what you mentioned, how many important contractors went under or were bought up leaving the market massively reduced and the total workforce for major capital projects crippled. But the time to change that is decades in the past now, and I can’t really think of how it can be changed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    Let me do a quick fact check on auld Turkey there.

    *Checks Facts*


    Big Army

    Big Air Force

    In NATO

    Is Ireland comparable to Turkey in any case or scenario X


    Id argue we are the most grown up country we don't provoke other countries, we don't have a pissing contest with our shiny toys when someone fly's in our airspace everyone lives and the dramatics are spared. It has served us well for decades if its not broke don't fix it.

    We are in no danger and are geographically safe as houses.

    But of course that isn't glorious enough for some need that ole dog fight and cool jets.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,143 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Geographically safe as houses, but yet bombed in WWII. Ships were sank off our shores.

    If it wasn't limitation then it certainly isn't now.

    Recently infrastructure and commercial activity has been threatened, interfered with. That it only increasing.

    So wrong again.



  • Registered Users Posts: 238 ✭✭mupper2


    I'm actually one of those people who isn't pushed about getting fighters...fighters are step 275 in a process and we're on step 2. Lot of capabilities, resources and remedies we need before that...the problem is people who want no steps to be taken at all about anything because someone else will take care of it.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    Steps to where exactly? Im all for taking action and improving the country but it has to make sense.

    When we get to step 275 and have a few operational jets and the Russians do infringe on our airspace whats the plan then? If we send up jets we are sending a clear message saying "do as we say or we will kill you". And should they not comply and we do shoot them down... whats your plan then?

    See the problem?



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