Jordan Neely killed by chokehold on subway

Yes you do.

But you don't have the right to deny this freelance reporter from Mexico his opinion either.

He was there you were not.

Ill repeat.

He was there you were not.

You are nothing to this case, he was a primary witness and may well end up in court testifying. You on there other hand will be on a computer putting words in his mouth.

That's the difference.

Why is it relevant if I've choked somebody out. It won't change how chokes work. And of course the world is not martial arts. Nobody should count on a tap or respect a tap in a situation like that.

Choke holds are a very effective way of restraining. If they are passive, obviously it makes more sense to use a restraint where you can handcuff them (if you re a cop). If somebody is continuing to be an aggressor. Rendering somebody unconscious makes it extremely easy to restrain in cuffs or whatever.

The issue is that the Police lack training, they do not have the skills or the experience in test techniques. Against an aggressive suspect, who keeps fighting. They hold chokes as they don't know what else to do. George Floyd, again the obvious example - not a chokehold, but Chauvin held neck restrained way past a sensible point.

As have some other states. Due to the fact that have essentially not training. and too many cops not know what thy were doing, were holding chokes far too long. Talking minutes and minutes not seconds.

The Guards here are also similarly badly trained. When a large part of the arrest process involves wrestling with suspects, it bizarre how little training they are given

Most of Europe would have longer, more compete training. The US is very much a rookie learns on the job system.

There’s much much more to it than being able to restrain someone. But that’s a element that’s really neglected both sides of the pond imo

Oh right. Is this how you post as well?

Amazing the high bar you put on others, yet you post any old shite and we have to take your word for it.

Regardless, a number of publications have referred to him in the same manner. You are just playing games now with his ethnicity.

"Under our law, a person is guilty of Murder in the Second Degree when, under circumstances evincing a depraved indifference to human life, he or she recklessly engages in conduct which creates a grave risk of death to another person, and thereby causes the death of that person [or of a third person].

[...]

A person RECKLESSLY ENGAGES IN CONDUCT WHICH CREATES A GRAVE RISK OF DEATH TO ANOTHER PERSON when he or she: engages in conduct which creates a grave and unjustifiable risk that another person's death will occur, and when he or she is aware of and consciously disregards that risk, and when that grave and unjustifiable risk is of such nature and degree that disregard of it constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of conduct that a reasonable person would observe in the situation."

Ny law: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjZ-OKw5uj-AhWIi1wKHfEaCCwQFnoECDsQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nycourts.gov%2Fjudges%2Fcji%2F2-PenalLaw%2F125%2F125-25%25282%2529.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3bDlt-GDGlTyUWfXsMn5H9

Somebody restraining a guy with a chokehold until he dies, while being told he's going to kill the guy?

Unless he can argue that his act of restraining Neely was justifiable even though it caused his death, I think he's in serious trouble. I can't see how he can expect anybody to believe that he didn't understand the potential consequence of his actions.

Well in fairness dead is pretty fukcen' subdued.

True. However forgive my lack of empathy, I'm too far removed from the person. I also think them an idiot. It's a classic case of FAFO. The man messed around one too many times and got done in. I'm not suggesting he deserved it or anything, however deserve has nothing to do with it, the world suffers fools very badly.

At 44 years of age I tend to have no particular need to feel modern or "in date" in how I spell anything in particular :) Also I wrote "Wrestler Types" not wrestlers. What I specifically meant by that is not someone who is very well trained at it or is currently training. But people who have some background in it. They have done a bit of it and have a few basics under their belt. Maybe enough to be over cocky. And yes - I do quite enjoy the humbled surprise on their faces when someone a fraction of their size basically turns them into a plaything. We do a lot of training in our family and have on one level or another been training our children since they could pretty much walk.

However all that said - I feel you have picked out the most irrelevant and incidental parts of my post to take issue with here - such as spelling? The central point of the post is that using a submission as a medium or long term control methodology is not something I have been trained - seen in anyone I have trained with - or have trained anyone else in. In fact the opposite is true. I have instilled in anyone I have trained - young or old - that submissions are you on the point of literally damaging or even killing another human being. And that if this marine genuinely thought this is what a rear naked choke was for - then something is off in his training somewhere. But alas none of us know what he was thinking - that he thought he was doing - or what his training is or has been. We can only leave it to the law and perhaps even a jury to decide this as time goes on.

Wholly agreed. It has always left me aghast how little training police forces and first responders around the world get on many things including hand to hand combat and restraint. I had the privilege on a couple of occasions to meet a certain fellow boards user in Germany and on one of the trips I was on a train and got talking conversationally with some police (who apparently travel free on the trains there so there's always loads of them on the train).

They were talking to me about my training and my black belt and so on with interest and I was asking them what training they had. Very very little was the answer they gave and they said they would feel lost entirely without the gun on their hip. Though their answer was confusing too - maybe lost in their not being perfect at English. It sounded like there was more training available somehow but you have to specifically request it. So much of it was voluntary rather than part of the core curriculum or training. I also got the impression that certain extra curricular training was doable off their own motivation and could be reimbursed later under some specific plan. I did mean to research it more later on but still haven't gotten around to it. The conversation left me feeling I knew less about their situation not more. But they were all generally of the consensus they were not at all confident in knowing what they were doing if they laid their hands on someone or had hands laid on them.

I have heard quite a few people lament just how little training they get in the US though. Guests on Joe Rogan - or on Jocko Willinks podcast. Jocko himself mentions it on a few occasions. And so on. What a lot of them also say is that one thing that is as bad as the lack of good training there - is the public perception of how much training they get. The public seem - they claim - to be under the impression they are in fact well trained in using close up combat and restraint and even their weapons. Which colors a lot of interpretations of events where things go wrong (like the cop who drew a gun while claiming they meant to draw a tazer - or when attempts at restraint go wrong).

Random example of Rogan and Willink discussing it here. They discuss the training cops get - being banned choke holds - how much training Willink thinks they should have and so on:

I do apologize. I thought I explained what I meant by it. I genuinely do not know how to explain it any better than I did. If that is my failing then so be it but I am not sure what else to do / say. But I will certainly try to do better from my side! :) Meet me half way :)

What I mean by it is that I as a teacher often see quite well built guys in their 20s come into the school to try it out. They have some not very recent background in wrestling but they are that "type". Perhaps they did a bit in school for example but never stuck with it. But they have in their heads a vague idea of what they think they should be doing. Often bad ideas sometimes. At other times often good ideas for that sport but that do not really translate well. I have been in competition and visited schools as a guest teacher in Germany too. So I have seen lads there with a background in what Germans call "Ringen" which is wrestling too. And have had fun sic'ing my daughter on a couple of them too. :)

And I have seen such guys get on top of someone much smaller in the mount position or something approximating the mount position. And I have seen the surprise and confusion and sometimes even awe on their face when that little person executes a perfect hip escape - slips around to take the back - and slaps on a perfectly executed choke. It's like magical ballet when you see it done well.

However neither my spelling - nor my personal anecdotes about how awesome it is to watch larger opponents crumple under a perfectly executed submission by smaller opponents - is actually all that relevant to the point I was making. I was just being conversational in mentioning it at all to be honest. I try to be personal when writing posts and color them with a bit of what makes me me - but usually not to support the point I am actually making. You can strip both out of my original post entirely and still be left with the substance of what I was getting at. I hope.

As for my spelling I appreciate your comment about it being associated with more Traditional Styles. Actually while my belt is in BJJ I have recently been getting a strong interest in both Judo and more Japanese forms of Jujitsu and getting really interested in the history and the evolution of them all both in isolation and against each other. I reckon my spelling is heavily affected and diluted by that. In fact I reckon if I wrote multiple posts in multiple threads discussing JJ I would be found spelling it different in each of the posts :) I am not particularly attached to any particular spelling and I just tend to type whatever comes out. I type really fast and rarely put too much thought into the spellings I use and if my auto correct changes it I tend to just leave it be too. In fact mostly I would prefer to just write BJJ - but then you get people making BJ jokes :) I actually have no idea where I picked up the habit of writing it as one word but still capitalizing the second J. Makes no sense to me - but I keep doing it. Nuts.

And as for choreographed - actually my other big love is Capoeira and a lot of what we do in that is very choreographed with a partner :) So good word to throw at me for sure :)

But aside from linguistic issues it sounds like we are in 100% agreement in everything we said specifically about this tragedy. Like you I have not watched the full video. I do not particularly want to watch a video of someone actively being murdered. I saw a bit of it though and the guy struggles for quite some time and his hands do not go to his neck at all. Which strikes me as quite odd because a well executed blood choke A) the victim will lose consciousness relatively quickly not be struggling and flailing for many minutes and B) when you really feel a choke hit you you almost instinctively can not help but throw your hands to your throat to defend and escape - like a natural panic reaction that just takes you over - and this guy was not doing it at all. Again I was not there and did not see the whole thing so I am talking guff mostly - but it just hit me as "Something is really off here".

I think I read you have a BJJ injury? Get well soon if so! I miss the mats like a drug when something keeps me away even for a day - let alone days or weeks.

Thanks for taking the time to explain. Get where you are coming form. I've found lads who played Rugby or similar physical sport tend to have the biggest expectation of being naturally able to grab and control guys as in their sport.

Agree. A poster earlier in the thread pointed out that a proper choke/strangle will have somebody out in seconds. This struggle going for an extended time shows that he (the choker) probably didn't know what he was doing, and this probably led to him holding on in ignorance and panic.

Here is a clip of top marines grappling in some sort of boot camp. Aggressive panic sums it up perfectly for me.

Such a strange take.

He would also be still alive if he wasn't strangled to death by another passenger.

Asking to be killed?

This thread is attracting some very strange posts.