Domestic Solar PV Quotes 2022 - No PM requests - See Mod note post #1

deezell · 13-05-2023 9:35am

My issue with batteries is return on investment. If you pay 5 grand for a ten year life 5kwh batter installation, that's costing €1.37 per day. If you get the boost rate for two hours at 13c/unit, and day rate is 44c, you'll consume 5 units at 13c to save 4 at 44c, due to all the charge/discharge and inverter losses. So 4 by 44 less 5 by 13 is 91c. You're still 46c short, and depending on daytime solar shifting to make that up. Fine if you can self install 5kw for 2.5-3 grand, but it doesn't save much at €1000 per kwh.

madsonke · 13-05-2023 9:39am

Hi lads,

Thinking of getting into the pv game myself and got few quotes back.

8 x 410w Jinko P type panels (JKM410M-54HL4-V)

1 x Solis-1P3.6K-4G inverter

Eddi

Net cost (after grant, no vat) - 5900€

I think it's a bit expensive especially considering these are p type panels?

UnhappyCustomer · 13-05-2023 10:07am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120590262#Comment_120590262

I know it might look silly but I like this calculator and it helped me to know if I'm being shafted or it is good price (apart from getting several quotes from several installers) http://davidhunt.ie/solar/

UnhappyCustomer · 13-05-2023 10:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120590033#Comment_120590033

I'm in the same boat with the peace of mind. Also, I'm not an electrician and I suppose I would need to learn a **** ton of things before doing my own DIY batteries which really puts me off but at the same time, the amount of money you need to spend in the Huawei batteries..

I'm with deezel, I don't think it is worth the return of investment. Also and I don't want to critise your setup, I'm just doing some reflections to try to understand. Is it worth the extra features the Huawei batteries come with compared to another possible batteries you can install even if they are not DIY? Can another cheaper battery with a better technology come up in the future and make it worth the possibility of installing other brands?

Ginger83 · 13-05-2023 10:13am

I got a battery quote from the installer and would appreciate opinions.

1×5.1kWh Dyness €2500 or 2×5.1kWh €4600

Are there better options, I have a 6kw Solis inverter. (diy battery not an option for me)

madsonke · 13-05-2023 11:33am

Thanks, it's not a bad tool to get rough idea of what you should be paying but doesn't take into consideration things such as which panels or inverter you're getting. It still says it's on a high end and I'm not sure p type panels + 4g only inverter are worth that kind of money. Looks to me that the installer is still trying to get rid of old stock or something but maybe I'm totally wrong about all this... And that's the best quote I got so far!

HotSwap · 13-05-2023 1:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120590257#Comment_120590257

We average 16kwh per day; so that’s 2400 on units and 380 standing charge. So total of 2780 per year. That’s where we were before PV / Battery. I spent 17k on my setup (which included a 10kWh huawei battery / 7.5 kWp of panels and a 6kwh inverter).

At the moment I have no bill ( and I am accruing enough FIT credits to get me over winter) - So it looks like I’m never paying an ESB bill again (unless I make changes - Considering A2A Heat Pump / EV When my trusty 2010 Golf dies).

So 17000/2780 gives 6.1 years payback. I’m happy with that; and I’m in full control of my energy usage. If I get 10 years out of the battery I’ll be very happy and buy a new one which I’m sure will have much better technology. If I get more than 10; we’ll that will be just super.

ITDept · 13-05-2023 2:37pm

I have been given this quote this week. Judging by the online calculator above, it's a bit dear. I'm struggling to do any better though. Would I be foolish to go ahead, or is it about right?

• 13 x 400w panels

• Hybrid inverter

• 5kwh battery storage

• My Energi hot water diverter

• Roof mounting equipment

• All labour works

• All electrical testing and commissioning

• Online monitoring to see each day exactly what your system is producing

€ 13,200.00 Cost. 0% VAT Offer

€ 2,400.00 SEAI Grant

€ 10,800.00 Final Cost to Customer.

JaCrispy · 14-05-2023 8:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120590922#Comment_120590922

You're looking at your payback period the wrong way around. There are several factors that might lower your 16kWh a day calculation, lifestyle changes, upgraded appliances etc. 16kWh a year ago, might be 14kWh now. You would be better to calculate your PV production, and calculate where every kWh goes e.g. house, Eddi, EV or export. And then calculate each kWh cost appropriately. Might also need to calculate in grid shifting if necessary. €2750 savings a year is highly highly unlikely, I'd hazard a guess that it closer to €2000 or lower.

I have a similar sized system to you, facing south ...in the sunny south east ....and my savings are around €1600 a year.

HotSwap · 14-05-2023 9:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120594904#Comment_120594904

16kwh average per day is an average over March / April this year. I’ve had the solar in since start mid Feb.

The most I’ve used in a day in March / April was 22.3 (dryer used 4.6 / washing machine used 3.75 that day - serious washing backlog by the looks of it) and the least was 9.8 (less people home as some went on holiday) the average of 16 is correct as of now.

before we got the PV we had an old dumb meter in the kitchen; I moved the meter outside / got the ESB out to take the cable off the side of the house and put it underground / and they also installed a smart meter. All this cost it rolled into the PV project. Hard to put a value on this stuff; the house looks better and is safer with out the cable hanging over the driveway; and the kitchen doesn't have a horrible meter on the wall.

I already monitor every large load in the home except the oven; I need to get a Shelly for that; so I know exactly what’s going on:

You can do your approach; where you try and factor in everything; which ends up being over complicated (I’ve done these same calculations myself).

Or just make it very simple like I did above. Regardless of how you calculate it; I’m not paying bills anymore; so I have achieved what I set out to do. If it takes 6 years or 8 years to pay back my investment is kind of irrelevant to me; I took money I had some in lower performing investments and diverted it into solar PV. I’m thinking of the 20-30 Year term on this investment.

I also have the ability to use my solar panels when the grid is down; and have all the critical circuits of my home backed up by the solar / battery (boiler / kitchen / lights / internet and Wi-Fi / etc…) no real way to put a value on this; but when the grid goes down for maintenance or as a result of a storm (which has happened regularly in the last 5 years) we will be totally oblivious and not have to make any changes to our schedule.

deezell · 14-05-2023 9:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120594904#Comment_120594904

I'd agree, and further add that savings are inflated by the current ridiculous kwh rates charged. They are so overdue to return to pre Ukraine levels its ridiculous. When it happens break even is more like ten+ years, battery boost differentials at night won't be even close to return on investment. Panels and inverter only for summer saving and feed in tariff represent the best roi, and when kwh rates drop, perhaps there will be value from installation quotes as it becomes less attractive financially.

Until kwh rates drop, evs and heatpumps are way more expensive. 5kwh at the meter to drive 20km is €1.76 during the day at home, upwards of €3 at a charge station. 1 liter of diesel at €1.50 will push a modest car 20km. This car will cost you €15k less than the ev

One litre of kerosene for 86c will heat your home by 10kwh, 24/7. 10kwh from a heatpump will use as much as 5 kwh electricity or more in really cold weather. €2.20 at daytime/evening rates. A gas/oil boiler is a fraction of the cost of a heatpump.

Your first spend should be on insulation. Real insulation, draught sealing and ventilation heat exchange. Not this paper exercise BER A rating, which sees new houses built with fully open to the outside 6" diameter vents blasting cold air through, but gets an A rating because there are closing springs on the inner doors, and 3 solar panels on the roof (often not connected).

HotSwap · 14-05-2023 10:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120594988#Comment_120594988

I was thinking; if anything the PV has made us use more power than before; as we know it’s free now as long as the sun is shining.

Well the prices are what they are; I’ll recalculate when they go down. I don’t know why people are so focused on ROI; it’s not like something magical is going to happen when I break even; it will just be another day where I’m still not paying for power due to an investment I made at some point in the past; 6 years / 8 years even 10; it’s not that important. The key thing is that my objective was to not pay bills; and that has been achieved.

yeah. I’m still using oil for heat and water; it’s 0.94 at the moment for me; where are you getting quoted 0.86? I need a fill :) But it’s more like 8.5-9 kWh per L according to my real world calculations due to efficiency of the oil boiler. And I do have my flow temps as low as they will go.

Im spending about 26k on new triple glazed windows / new front and back door all with air tightness seals; new PVC and gutters / cladding / facias. And pumping all cavities and full external wrap kicking off in Aug (been on a waiting list for a highly regarded / reputable local contractor for almost a year when it kicks off).

I have no interest in BER; I have a FLIR camera; that I’ll be using to double check all of the above work.

once that’s all done im looking into air to air heat pump for water heating / heating / cooling. But that’s prob a year away. And another 9-12 panels on the roof (none on the roof at the moment) to make sure I’m still net positive and not paying bills. Reason for roof rather than extending ground mount is that ground mount is SE and roof is SW so it will extend my production well into the evening.

if I ever get an EV I’ll simply extend my ground mount system (not much room on the roof) significantly to accommodate for this (which would require planning permission); I’ve got conduits with plenty of space that makes extending a simple job.

deezell · 14-05-2023 10:08am

The enormous capital cost of solar, batteries, heatpumps and ev batteries, all potentially needing replacement or extortionate repair by the end of ten years is not good for your sleep. Evs are often scrap if the entire battery needs replacing at €€20k. You can get a new gas boiler in fir a grand.

HotSwap · 14-05-2023 10:22am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120595118#Comment_120595118

It was a lot of money; but that money was sitting elsewhere doing a lot less work for me. If things break they will either be replaced free under warranty and I’ll do the work myself. Or they fail after warranty at which point they will already have paid for themselves; at which point I’ll be happy to swap in some new gear with latest technology.

You definitely cannot get a gas boiler in for 1000 euro; I’ve just replaced 2 in the last year. And I’m paying trade prices for the units and using a gas safe plumber that I have a good relationship with.

deezell · 14-05-2023 11:54am

Probably true. It's only a few years ago that there were ads for boiler swapout for 900. Low cost generic two pipe, maybe €500 and your man had 400 for his half day. I was told by a property friend that he can't get a plasterer out of bed for less than 1200, a DAY. Before retirement, I never earned that in a week.

deezell · 14-05-2023 12:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120595095#Comment_120595095

10.35 kwh/l for kerosene by the claimed boiler efficiency of 96% is 10kwh to the house/l but of course you need to optimise flow temperature to the lowest to maintain the coolest return flow for optimal condensing. Smart thermostat with modulating firing helps this. Some kero now less than 80c

https://www.cheapestoil.ie/heating-oil-prices/Republic

graememk · 14-05-2023 12:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120594988#Comment_120594988

I get your point your making. But your giving best case scenario for kero and worst for heatpump.

Say I flip that around, have a 30 yr old kero boiler, id be lucky to get 70% efficiency. thats only 7kwh.

If then had a well designed heatpump. with a COP of 4. (for instance glyn from openenergymonitor done a self/design install https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hyv_vQEvHgo Actual data : https://emoncms.org/samsung5kw

Just a standard terrace house in wales. COP since aug 2022 4.2 I trust his data... Its his day job!

that 7kwh you get costs 86c 7kwh from that heatpump, on flogas current day night, currently the cheapest on the market (39.85 day, 19.31 night) is 1.6kwh needed and that costs 63c.

If you be a bit clever and preheat the house in the early morning and heat your DHW at 19.85 c that 7kwh only costs 30c

EVs

My car does 16-17 kwh /100km, a light foot diesel : 4.5l/100 km.

at 19.85c/100km €3.27/ 100km Diesel : €6.75/100km . My current night rate is 8c.. We shall see what i get when i renew in august.

Why would somebody regularly charge on day rate?.

I agree, Insulate. but a well priced solar system is still easy low hanging fruit to grab. Especially if your any way handy.

I do have a large PV setup now, I've been practically off grid car included since the start of april.

Dont be so doom and gloom 😉

bullit_dodger · 14-05-2023 1:52pm

Might be going a little off the "quotes" thread in theory - but I guess it's useful in the context of people getting quotes.

The ROI stuff is always interesting to me. Physiologically, I know looking back I used that as a way to proceed with the installation. Sort of justifying to myself "Hey, sure I'll break even in 8-9 years - and then it will be "free" electricity for the rest of my life". I've my installation up and running for 18 months now, and while ROI is somewhat still important to me, it more because my love of numbers (I've a degree in math) that I track and analyze the data.

In truth, nowadays I think about this way that I paid this one big WHOPPING ESB bill, and now for the next 20 or so years I'll have lower bills and some financial security. Could be 30 years at diminished production, but I'm not going to quibble here. I like the fact that if I turn on the heater in the bathroom for a shower when another "beast from the east" rocks in, that I won't be worried about the cost as much when I might be unemployed or retired. So like Hotswap above, my relationship with electricity has changed, and I like to think for the better. I do consume more, but it's electricity that I effectively paid for in that whopping big bill :)

Then there is the environment consideration. I know that most (60-70%) of the energy I consume in the house is good clean renewable, and I won't have Greta coming around kicking my arse. Sure - this isn't something that most people think about with forking out €10k+ but it's important to me anyway, so I think that money well spent. With EV's on the way, and heat pumps, and induction hobs for the cooking if anything we're going to use more and more electricity as we move forward.

Ultimately my advice to people doing the math is sure, work it out ... and if your getting "in about" the 10 year mark your probably getting a good deal. It's not a binary switch though. 10 years good , 11 years bad - and it will depend on your circumstances. Some people can field a 10Kwp array and 20Kwhr in batteries, and more power to them. Others getting in 4Kwp and no battery will still do very well (even in these ridiculous times). Shopping around is the key - and yes, it's not as good as thngs were in 2020/21, but solar is generally good for 95% of people.

lotusm · 14-05-2023 7:00pm

Hi , appreciate if I'm getting a reasonable quote in the current market. just to note We already have a 7 year old thermodynamic panel heating a 280 litre tank for hot water only.

quote is as follow

4.8kWp system

12 Q Cell DUO 400 Black Mono Panels

Solis String inverter

No Battery ,

No Hot water Divert

34cent FIT for 2 years

Final price €9000

graememk · 14-05-2023 7:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120596967#Comment_120596967

Get more prices. because with that higher FIT we all know how active that company is.

dont be woo'd by the higher feed in tariff. People have still being able to meet or get close to the €1200/kwp guide.

Id be looking for quotes around the 6k mark.

lotusm · 15-05-2023 8:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120597085#Comment_120597085

thanks . they were really pushing not to get the battery as the FIT was so good ( They want to get as much customers for there electricity provider to use the FIT I suppose )... He said he had only sold 1 battery to a customer out of the last 100. I thought I might get the Hybrid invertor to future proof but that would cost an extra €1000. I had about 6000 Kwh used in 2022... So should I be looking for a battery and if so what size ?

graememk · 15-05-2023 8:48am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120598135#Comment_120598135

As for batteries, it's a big ol "it depends"

Batteries are great to have but can be expensive, especially now with the feed in tariff (standard SSE is 24c/kwh),

SSE own part of that install company.

To make the most of the FIT you do also need a smart meter

First of all, get more quotes for solar only there's much better offers out there.

You should be able to get a similar system for about 3k less. And 2 years of a 10c bonus would never make up that difference

4.8kwp will prob produce 4000kwh and if you export 60%, thats 2400kwh, that is €240/year extra you would get for the better feed in tariff.

Jesper · 15-05-2023 9:34am

All,

Very valuable information being posted and I love the debate on it. For me ROI and Environmental issues are important. I'll be purchasing an electric car in the coming years. Myself and wife work from home so that is 2 laptops and 4 monitors on the go all the time. We already have 2 Solar Hot Water Panels. it will be our 'forever house' so I want everything to be quality. Neighbor put me in contact with a reputable company. From speaking to them I do feel that their offering is good - but expensive. Please provide opinions (Huawei safe?.

Here is a quote (do I hide the supplier name?)

" From an average House Esb bill of €275 per 2 months (€1650) gave an estimated usage of between 5000-6000kwhs maximum. Which at the current unit rate of 0.39c equals €1950-€2340 for 2023 NOT including Vat and S/c Pso levy's etc..

From this total, 3000-3600kWhs would represent 60% of this house usage and it's this figure that we try and base the production of your system around, because no PV system can cover all that usage practically vs the cost of the extra panels and large battery required plus more production won't necessarily cover more of this usage just feed the grid.

All our inverters and systems are grid-tied systems so you will remain part of the national grid and therefore always receive a bill.

So 3600kWhs divided by the 405w SunPower P6 panels we supply tells us that the minimum number of panels required to cover this 60% was in your case was 8.88 (9) But that to maximize the potential savings 10 may suit better if your budget allows it because it qualifies for the maximum grant and gives a higher KWP with a split system.. So

08 x Sunpower P6 405w panels = 3.24kWp SE&SW split system = 2900Whs+* per year. (90%efficiency) from panel to fuse board.

*Still producing almost 50% of a 6000kwh usage per year...

10 x Sunpower P6 405w panels = 4.05kWp SE&SW split system = 3600Whs+* per year. (96%efficiency) from panel to fuse board.

*Still producing more than 50% of a 7000kwh usage per year... were your day usage to ever increase - so definitely no need for more panels.

The Annual production from our 08/10-panel system will produce over 60% of your house load per year and will see a Minimum saving per year of 50% off the cost of the Electricity right now giving you the ability to contribute to the house load & run appliances during daylight hours from the panels once you do not switch everything on at once! which you can still do but then you would draw the energy above the production of the panels at that point from the grid; meaning you should only really be using energy from the grid at night time or when the load exceeds the panels production.

Plus, the number one principle with our own understanding and advice is to install only what's needed (08/10) and try and use as much each day yourself meaning you import the least from the grid going forward; Also there is less sense in us recommending a battery because of the cost vs benefit ratio (€6200 (5kwh battery) =10% extra esb saving (€220 only) Plus, the Huawei hybrid inverter is battery ready so it can be added at any point in the future.

Usage vs Production Conclusion.

Estimated total house usage = 6000kWhs per year = 17kWhs per day currently.

Our Production total per year = 2900/3600kWhs per year = 8/10kWhs per day.

Meaning after installation, you should be only using roughly 9or7kwhs per day from the grid from then on because our system will always be producing over half of your usage per day annually from its production - THE KEY IS TO USE IT BEFORE YOU LOSE IT...

Expected production from our 3.24kWp SE&SW split system...

Spring 6hours (11-5pm) peak production on average 2-2.9kw P/H= 12-17KWs per day.

Summer 8hours (10-6pm) peak production on average 2-2.9kw P/H= 16-23KW per day.

Winter 3 hours (12-3pm) peak production on average 1.5-2.5kw P/H = 4-7KW per day.

10 panels the same times just 3-3.7kw maximum output.

***most important PV principle - use the above production the most to benefit you***

Pricing.

08 x SunPower P6 405w panels. €8595 (inc 4KW Hybrid inverter and all fittings)

BER certification €390

Slate install 08x€35. €280

Shunt control. €220

Total price €9485

Grant Reduction. -€2172

Cost to install. €7313

(Premium 3.24kWp Split PV system, BER, battery-ready).= 2900Kwhs+ p/year

Welcome Bonus... -€7063

08 panel premium PV system for €7063 including your welcome bonus if you chose myself and PV Generation to partner with.

OR..

10 x SunPower P6 405w panels. €9595 (inc 4KW Hybrid inverter and all fittings)

BER certification €390

Slate install 10x€35. €350

Shunt control. €220

Total price €10555

Grant Reduction. -€2400

Cost to install. €8155

(Premium 4.05kWp Split PV system, BER, battery-ready).= 3600Kwhs+ p/year Welcome Bonus... -€250

10 panel premium PV system for €7905 including your welcome bonus if you chose myself and PV Generation to partner with.

Once operational, you can expect the following savings per year from your estimated

€2100 Esb usage cost.. Bill higher including Vat, standing charge etc..

A Minimum of 50% Esb €1050 minimum saving per year..

Payback.

08 panel system = €7063 divided by minimum 50%savings €1050= 6.72years payback*

10 panel system = €7905 divided by minimum 50%savings €1050= 7.52years payback*

* Worst case scenario - for a Premium 25-year Solar PV system. Plus if energy prices continue to increase then your savings increase with the price meaning the system should pay for itself sooner.

Conclusion. (my advise)

Install our Premium 08/10-panel system now to give you the most Long-term benefit for the least investment in our premium system, Providing power for your House load, W/M, D/W, Dryer etc during each day. You would also retain the ability to add a battery to the same inverter in future because the inverter we install every time is Hybrid; plus your excess will be used via Plug-in Hybrid or EV battery and SMART charger in future which has further rewards as well.

Efficiency, Performance and Production.

Our Production of 2900/3600kwhs is guaranteed to be a minimum of (2523/3132) in 25 years from the Sunpower P6 panels we supply. Plus, the Huawei Inverter has a full 10-year warranty and 25-year lifespan so a once-off purchase you can rely on.

All Monitored F.O.C via HUAWEI FUSION APP.. with real time house, PV Array and grid load meters.

HotSwap · 15-05-2023 9:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120598352#Comment_120598352

Way too expensive. 6200 for a battery that costs about 3200. Insane. Move on.

graememk · 15-05-2023 10:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120598352#Comment_120598352

Whole load of waffle there.

Get more quotes it's quite expensive.

deezell · 15-05-2023 12:08pm

If electricity prices were to go back only to May 2021 prices, 19c/kwh, a lot of those bloated quotes would make no economic sense. Gas and oil, and non renewables, which still produce two thirds of our energy have dropped back to or below 2021 prices. We're being royally ripped off from all directions.

Jesper · 15-05-2023 12:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120598408#Comment_120598408

Hi @HotSwap .

I think the point he was making is that the batter buy back period isn't worth it. Saying that I'm sure you're right and he's used a massively inflated price for the battery in his example.

I am not considering a battery at this time. But I will get a EV charger with battery capacity.

HotSwap · 15-05-2023 1:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120599018#Comment_120599018

Yeah. It never would be if your charging outrageously for it.

Bit of a conflict of interest taking advice on Solar PV / Battery storage from an energy supplier.

graememk · 15-05-2023 1:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120599018#Comment_120599018

Ev charger with battery capacity? What?

Get more quotes.

unkel · 15-05-2023 1:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120596967#Comment_120596967

That's about €2400 in parts at trade prices. The grant is €2400. You decide if it is reasonable to charge €9000 + €2400 - €2400 = €9000 for two man days of labour (at about €200-300 per day per man) and €8500 profit

I wonder is it a very Active company or eight of them to charge you this?

Domestic Solar PV Quotes 2022 - No PM requests - See Mod note post #1

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