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Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    I find it genuinely amazing though the level of mental gymnastics performed by you and your buddies to convince yerselves that everyone that disagrees with ye is a troll.

    Surely ye LL get an award to recognize your length of service 5 years on the same thread banging the same drum truly is a feat.

    Probably gotta be contender for the longest consecutive echo chamber in history too!



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭sparky42


    I’d be surprised if the AC was still using anything priced from then, in aviation 20 years is an entirety. I would have assumed if might have been internal work for the Commission?


    Speaking of 9/11, I wonder what options were considered then before we did nothing?



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,144 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    ...and 9/11 no doubt...

    Last I checked, and last time this thread discussed the running costs across the various options in any published articles were quite old even back then. Recent event have lots of nations rushing to a common more expensive platform. Defence budgets have been increased. Its a different landscape now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,451 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    I'm told there was a plan to purchase L39 from the Czech Republic (2nd hand) on the condition we purchased some new L159 ALCA. It would have given us the bare minimum in capability, but no more came of it, and we bought some 2nd hand L70 Bofors 40mm AA guns and linked Radar (Flycatcher) instead.

    As for costings, I know the italians made a proposal to the CoDF for the M346.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭sparky42


    We have the costings put forward for the option of the M346 (well we have what the company says it would cost), and we have the ball park numbers/figures from a previous AC General for a mor capable option, so I doubt the AC is using 20 year old figures. While I don’t have it up right now the figure quoted in the Journal reminds me of the Italian option and costs more than Gripens.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭sparky42


    It’s not like we couldn’t have afforded it then (or any time since the 90s), but very Bertie to stick us with marginal at best AA guns and think that solved the issue. I’ve often wondered if we had kept the budget in or around the 1% circa end of the Troubles what we would be looking at now in terms of what the DF would be?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,755 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    The M346 is 25/30 million per unit so it probably was them



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,149 ✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    I think we need to remember our own history and how our independence came about by force. Some of those who support neutrality, such as PBP, seem to do so from a pacifistic perspective, also opposing an increase in defence spending. Such an approach would leave Ireland defenceless in case of Russian or other aggression.

    There is a danger of Ireland being used as a launchpad to attack the UK and other European neighbours. There is also a danger that the transatlantic telecommunication-cables are being mapped and mined by the Russian navy. There have been reports I heard recently on RTE Radio 1 that analysts believe Russia has mined essential infrastructure throughout Europe.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    I suppose something will get done eventually....Just hope they don't go for the absolute minimum.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,144 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997




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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭purplepanda


    I seem to remember when a levy on aviation carriers was previously mentioned to finance Ireland 's air policing duties, Ryanair MD Michael O'Leary & the aviation sector had a massive tantrum.

    I think some of the cost of air policing really should be implemented on the aviation industries, the multinational corporations paying low rates of taxes on profits should also be forced to contribute towards the cost of Ireland's defence forces.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Nah, we aren’t even at a bare minimum at the moment, we have to work up to that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    Ah yes Ireland is going to be used as a launch pad to attack the UK, meanwhile in reality the Russians cant project power past there own doorstep.

    This of course is completely ignoring the fact that no one is relying on Ireland to protect critical infrastructure, nor will they ever.

    Serious over estimation of Ireland position on the global stage in regards to military according to the notions on here we are absolutely vital which is genuinely laugh out loud stuff.

    The only reason we are taking about the russians doing anything to cables is because the UK military and the US military are all over it as its important to them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    If there was any realistic threat that definitely needed policing they would be campaigning for it but there isnt... as proven by decades of safe skys.

    O'Leary is no fool he wont pay for nonsense like that and rightly so, having gobshites flying around in jets unnecessarily just so the air corps can feel good about itself and combat imaginary threats they made up themselves.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Of course they are! We should be too. As for the Russians they don't seem to be able enough but who knows what can happen. At least we should have a certain capacity to defend ourselves.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,104 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34




  • Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    None that you would be privy to only people in certain channels and people that are tuned in and up to date know about it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,104 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    So to know about it, you must know about it, yeah?

    You're so satisfied that this deal adequately protects our territory and interests, I'm assuming you know all about the details?

    So instead of dismissing all the legitimate concerns of other posters here, tell us about what you know that we do not?

    Share the reasons for your boundless confidence and self-satisfaction so that we too might see the light!

    Because someone so smug could only be 'in the know'. Right?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,451 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    To know about it means they are one of a small cohort of civil servants within the DOD/DFAT who are easily identifiable. To confirm its existence is at odds with civil service policy regarding the use of social media.

    If they are "in the know" they face a meeting without coffee tomorrow morning, followed by a swift reassignment to Dept of the Gaelteacht.


    Or they could just be a troll full of shite.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭sparky42


    I do wonder with the increased attention, just how long the current policy of denying any details on "National Security" is going to hold up to be honest? I mean at least it's going to come up next time Martin is before the Committee, what's he going to do, say "National Security" to every question?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,451 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    If he wishes committee can meet in private, for reasons of "national security" but to allow oversight.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Indeed, and that should be the least he does given it’s importance and the ambiguity around the whole thing, but so far there’s been no suggestion of such, when’s the next scheduled hearing I wonder?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    I somehow doubt that that fella has any inside knowledge at all. Probably a PBP activist who just happened upon the thread and wants to piss everyone off. Deeply unpatriotic into the bargain.



  • Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    Why am i so confident our airspace is so secure ? Let me see.... decades on decades without any major incident for one without any fighter jets.

    Im simply asking those who are campaigning so hard for jets to give me examples of these "severe" threats we are facing on a daily basis so much so they describe our need for fighter aircraft as "urgent"

    All i get back is vague nonsense about "hybrid threats" and other shite one lad referencing ww2 and scrawls of irish Times articles.. ffs.. of course i know asking these questions that there is no consistent threat of note to Ireland to warrant spending on fighter jets our decades apon decades of safe skies gives testament to my claims.

    Its not my fault asking people about imaginary threats triggers people.

    And apparently having common sense is unpatriotic these days to laughable.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    True Mr disco



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,144 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997



    The RAF Harriers had no radar, no long range Anti Air Missiles, slow (for interceptors), and short ranged. They are ground attack aircraft primarily. Only the Sea Harriers had radar. but had similar limitations. The US ones have Radar, but still aren't interceptors. Hence why they use the UK ones as parts bins for theirs. Its also one of the harder aircraft to fly. They just aren't suited to the current Irish requirement.

    Brilliant aircraft though.

    In a modern context its design compromised its speed and stealth potential and payload, going forward. There was a proposal for a "Super Harrier" but they ultimately went the F35 route instead.

    Personally I think the Harrier still is a useful aircraft (not for Ireland). But they are shrinking fleets to put the money in fewer more advanced aircraft. Hence why they want to dump the A10 and F15 in the US.

    Post edited by Flinty997 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Apart from what has been mentioned there's also the high accident rates for them, and the fact that you are talking about fairly old designs at this stage with plenty of issues building up for spares for example. There would be no real value in going with them, not too mention the fact that they would struggle with an air interception/policing situation off the West Coast given their limited top speed.

    They were a relatively niche airframe that served a purpose but not suited for us at all.



  • Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭RavenP


    @Mr Disco Harriers are really not that useful. For a start they cannot really do an interecpt. They are not that fast, a bit faster than the PC9s but intercept jets need to be really fast to catch up with the thing they are trying to catch. For instance, an unidentified aircraft travelling at 36,000 feet at 600 mph shows on Irish radar.Unless the aircraft is going to fly more or less over an Irish airbase then the interceptor must catch up with and intercept a plane travelling, possibly away from it at 600mph. As you can see the interceptor really needs to be at least capable of twice that speed to stand a fair chance of making the intercept. The only people to use it in such a role were the RN, but in this context it was to intercept aircraft flying to your ship, so speed is not so important when they are heading your way. But I agree, if Ireland is going to acquire fast combat jets they should be multi-role. But that means not just buying multirole aircraft, it means training multirole pilots, and different types of munitions. One of the big problems the RAF and other top tier airforces have is that they have multirole aircraft, but pilots only trained for one role, meaning their supposedly multi-role aircraft is not really able to function in that manner.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭sparky42


    O'Leary having a temper tantrum, that never happens... To be honest though, I don't really see the point in all this jumping through hoops to try and get special methods to offset the costs of air policing. The State can pay for it with the resources we have already, its just we are choosing as we always have not to bother. Of course its going to cost to create, but that is a byproduct of us having not invested before now. If we returned to the % level we were spending during the Troubles, this wouldn't be an issue, or even just hit 1%, no need for this BS of getting contributions from other departments or some sort of special tax.



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