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Media silence over Niall Collins story

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    Probably some elaborate Russian honey-trap I'd imagine.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,878 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Pffft. Probably just a Russian honeytrap to destabilise Ogra Fianna Fail.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,845 ✭✭✭BENDYBINN


    The criminal party here have the same agenda….



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    Which criminal party, you'll have to be more specific, white collar or blue collar?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,937 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Lol it was either an unsourced anonymous tweet or doesn't exist



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,878 ✭✭✭hometruths




  • Registered Users Posts: 456 ✭✭Sono Topolino




  • Registered Users Posts: 17,937 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    He "sold" his shares to a company with one director who happens to be paddy cosgraves personal solicitor aka a holding company, these generally pay out consultancy fees to the real shareholders. Paddy likes to sit up on his high horse but he is actually just as dirty as those he hates, only someone with absolutely no morals would take Qatari money to host an event there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 456 ✭✭Sono Topolino


    It’s irritating when the same debunked claims come up over and over again in this thread by people who never engage with the substantive point. I have never given my first preference to a Fianna Fáil candidate in a single election and yet I’m apparently shilling for Niall Collins. My entire point was that he can be a scumbag without being a criminal. Legality does not determine morality.

    There are a few posters who have contributed to this thread who clearly work in a legal profession. I think I can speak for them in saying that there’s nothing more irritating than someone who repeatedly claims you’re wrong without a) understanding what they’re talking about, and b) having the courtesy to present an argument. Then despite having never advanced a coherent argument, they proceed to claim my argument is weak or that I’m an FFG shill. Why do posters have to be so damn partisan all the time? Do you honestly have to let your anti-establishment politics rule your brain?

    I’ve made false claims on this thread myself (e.g. I thought Collins married in 2010) but I have owned them and corrected them. There’s no shame in being wrong from time to time, just in refusing to admit it when you are and continuing to espouse obvious rubbish.

    That’s it for me on this thread.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 456 ✭✭Sono Topolino




  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,878 ✭✭✭hometruths


    In the spirit of engaging with the substantive point, do you think if the solicitor had enquired about purchasing the land on Niall Collins' behalf rather than his wife, Collins' actions would be illegal?



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,937 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Cosgrave already owns shares why would he not take them into his name? There's really only 1 reason to hide the real owner and that's because it's Chay who works for RT.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,466 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    posters here have enough time grasping the facts about what ACTUALLY happened without you bringing hypotheticals into the mix.

    at the end of the day, collins, nor any connected person to him, had any beneficial or pecuniary interest in the site.

    this appears to be subject of garda examination, so lets leave it until that investigation is finished before we claim there is illegality here



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,878 ✭✭✭hometruths


    The point being that @Sono Topolino claims to have absolutely no problem grasping the facts so its not exactly a tough question to answer.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's a nominee shareholder arrangement, the only purpose of which is to obfuscate the true ownership of the arrangement, which is telling in itself.

    Under the CBI money laundering/terrorist financing guidelines, such an arrangement is considered a high risk factor.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,466 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    its completely hypothetical and adds absolutely zero to the conversation



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,878 ✭✭✭hometruths


    I just find it amazing how many posters who claim to understand the Local Government Act perfectly are so unwilling to answer a simple question.



  • Registered Users Posts: 456 ✭✭Sono Topolino



    Let's start with the simple fact that Niall is not his wife - so we are looking at a different fact pattern. This makes it pretty hard to give a concrete answer.

    Assuming Niall in this case is Dr. Niall Collins who carries on a medical practice and is considering buying the land for use in his medical practice. Well for the reasons given already in respect of his wife, then there would be no breach of the LGA. A future intention to buy land isn't a "beneficial interest" or a "declarable" interest. Niall wouldn't be in the property development business in this hypothetical scenario. Would this be ethical? I don't think I ever claimed that it would be. Should we have stricter laws governing public life? Probably yes. Of course, it makes no sense to propose new laws without actually having the resources to enforce them so you could argue that it would be better to start by enforcing the ones that already exist, such as by auditing declarations of interest etc. But I'm always open to a good debate about political reform on this country.

    However, that isn't what we were discussing - we're wondering whether Niall Collins would break the law. As you can already tell, it's hard to answer hypothetical questions. A lot depends on why he would consider buying it. If he wants to buy the land for property development reasons, then you have issues under section 175 LGA to consider. If he wants to buy it for non-commercial reasons or commercial reasons that don't fit into any of the declarable interests in section 175 LGA, and there are no other red flags, then it's probably not illegal.

    Obviously once the transaction is at a more advanced stage, he would have to declare his interest and recuse himself. I'm discussing the Bruff Area Committee meeting specifically.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,466 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat




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  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,878 ✭✭✭hometruths


    However, that isn't what we were discussing - we're wondering whether Niall Collins would break the law. As you can already tell, it's hard to answer hypothetical questions. A lot depends on why he would consider buying it. If he wants to buy the land for property development reasons, then you have issues under section 175 LGA to consider. If he wants to buy it for non-commercial reasons or commercial reasons that don't fit into any of the declarable interests in section 175 LGA, and there are no other red flags, then it's probably not illegal.

    In the hypothetical question he wants to buy it to build a medical centre, and specifically states that in his letter of enquiry.

    How does that fit in with Section 175 of the LGA?



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,878 ✭✭✭hometruths




  • Subscribers Posts: 41,466 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat




  • Registered Users Posts: 456 ✭✭Sono Topolino



    To keep it simple, let's say Dr. Eimear O'Conor sent the letter while being a county councillor instead of married to one, and attended the Bruff Area Committee meeting without saying a word, would she (all else being equal) have breached the LGA? No.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,878 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Well we'll have to disagree on that. She clearly would be in breach.



  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,878 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Page 1 under heading "Main Features"

    Failure to comply with the annual declaration or disclosure requirements is an offence under the Act. 

    It's pretty simple.

    Instructing a solicitor to contact the council to formally express an interest in purchasing council owned land to develop, is clearly intended to be covered by the requirement to disclose being engaged in the business of property development which relates to dealing in or developing land.

    Therefore he would have a legal obligation to disclose to the council meeting that one of the enquiries received was from his solicitor on his behalf.

    Otherwise you'd have a scenario in which councillors, knowing that an enquiry about wishing to purchase council owned land would lead to the discussion of whether or not to sell the land arising at a council meeting, and those councillors could participate in that meeting and agree to the sell the land without ever mentioning it was their enquiry that prompted the discussion in the first place.

    It is absurd to suggest that legislators who drafted and signed off on this legislation. i.e the Oireachtas, did not intend this sort of thing to be disclosed.

    It is exactly the sort of scenario the legislation is intended to prevent.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,461 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I can not speak to the intention of the act, but it absolutely does not cover that event.

    They even go to the effort of listing what needs to be disclosed in both and annual declaration and in the event of a topic arising during a meeting. You are reading what you think the legislation should say and not what it actually says.

    For the record, "any profession, business or occupation of dealing in or developing land " refers to declarable interests. So you are suggesting that even if the land had never come up for sale or been discussed that Niall Collins was legally obliged to declare this request, and any other request his wife had made about buying land anywhere, in his Annual Declaration of Interests? That is patently absurd which shows that your reasoning is not correct.

    If we look further in the document to the section specifically covering disclosure of interests during meetings we get this

    3. What is a pecuniary or other beneficial interest? The Act provides that a “beneficial interest” includes an interest in respect of which -

    a) you or a connected person, or any nominee of yours or of a connected person, is a member of a company or any other body which has a beneficial interest in, or which is material to, any such matter,

    (b) you or a connected person is in a partnership with or is in the employment of a person who has a beneficial interest in, or which is material to, any such matter,

    (c) you or a connected person is a party to any arrangement or agreement (whether or not enforceable) concerning land which relates to any such matter, 

    There was no arrangement or agreement, and therefore neither Collins nor any connected person was a party to said non-existent agreement.


    You are assuming the intention of the legislation and seem to think that the nuances of how it is written are somehow not important. Legislation is drafted carefully and has specific meanings and while obviously mistakes are made, you can only go by what is actually in statute. And specifically in this case it is clear that there was no beneficial interest to be disclosed as there was no financial exposure to the land, no ownership, and no arrangement or agreement.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,407 ✭✭✭✭Dav010




  • Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,878 ✭✭✭hometruths




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  • Registered Users Posts: 456 ✭✭Sono Topolino


    Sorry but you have yet to provide a reason why she would be in breach. I have told you multiple reasons why she would not be. The idea that merely wanting to expand your commercial premises makes you a property developer, when your business otherwise has nothing to do with property development, is utterly ridiculous.



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