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Civil servants to call for four-day working week

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  • Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Pretty standard fare for this kind of thread.

    Which is funny, considering the number of posters who give out, but demonstrably don't know the difference between civil and public servants, and/or can't seem to follow simple concepts or online instructions.

    They'd never pass the exams.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,104 ✭✭✭pcardin


    Jayzus, the snowflakes these days. You must be a state paid employee as the drama that comes out of you on this topic clearly suggests you are. lol. I asked you a question, you didn't answer. Instead you are running around here screaming on how somebody does not know the difference between civil and public servant. Both are mostly state funded crowd so for most of the public there's feck all difference. Are chaps pressing print button to print tax disc state paid or privately paid?



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,706 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    It's all automated ffs 🙄

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,104 ✭✭✭pcardin


    Good to know thanks!

    Then why the hell we still require a stupid paper disc to put in the windscreen like it is 1950 outside?! Maybe CS/PS can now use their time (since they are not printing) to come with a better, more 'up with modern time' option, like most EU countries?

    Anyway - tax disc is off topic. Please ignore.



  • Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Look at you getting all wound up and doubling down because you showed up your own lack of knowledge.

    Yet I'm being dramatic and the one "screaming". 🤣

    How many off topic posts on tax discs have you made now?

    Have a nice day. 🤡



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,104 ✭✭✭pcardin


    you still didn't answer my question. Someone else did. And its clear why work quality and regular absence of servants is shocking - they spend their time on Boards.



  • Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I am happy to answer questions when they are asked in a civilised manner. You might try it some time. Tends to get better results. 😘



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,037 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Its symptomatic of the mindset that exists across the PS though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,706 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Complain to the people who make the laws not the people who implement them.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,374 ✭✭✭SortingYouOut


    I wouldn't expect them to understand how these things work, they've shown such a lack of understanding that it is clear they are here just to argue. They probably think the legislature and executive are brands of aftershave.

    Beverly Hills, California



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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,918 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    The people who make the laws are advised by the people who implement them.



  • Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    CS can advise, but it does not mean they have the final say. Far from it. The buck and the final say, always lies with the current Minister and Government.

    After all, where do these "laws" go to get implemented? The Houses of the Oireachtas. And who elects the TDs in the Dáil? That's right, the general public do. Remember that next time you're voting.

    Because civil servants have to work for and take their instruction from the Government in power, not the other way around.

    I've seen newly appointed Ministers come into departments and throw out years of work with the stroke of a pen, and there was literally nothing anyone in the CS could do about it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,619 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    What are civil servants proposing, 80% of the pay, 100% of the pay for less hours or 100% of the pay for the "same" hours but over 4 days.

    What metrics do civil servants have to show that the quality of the services will stay the same or improve with a 4 day working week, are they already being proactive with modernising their systems to allow this to occur, are they OK with modernisation programs that will eliminate the need for certain workers and for those to be made redundant?

    Will overtime be completely eliminated as part of the process?

    How will this be enforced, if your co-worker wants to work an extra day regardless and gets more work done (by working an extra day or longer days), should they be eligible for performance based bonuses based off that?

    What metrics show that the workers with the best performance are the ones earning pay increments and promotions, similarly, what metrics show that the poor workers are not being rewarded and let go if their performance doesn't improve.

    Detailed evidence based answers to the above are the minimum the public would expect before a 4 day week was viable for civil servants.

    Any private company looking to do the same will have answers to all these before implementing the process.



  • Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    As far as I know, all that has happened is a motion at the AHCPS conference which was passed.

    No formal proposal has been put to either DPER or the Government. So cool your jets.

    I'm sure all these questions will be addressed if it ever goes any further than that.

    But again I would point out the Worksharing Scheme which allows staff to apply to work reduced weeks already, and has been in place for over 20 years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,706 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Love to know what the obsession with overtime is about, in the vast majority of civil service roles overtime is rare to non-existent.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,283 ✭✭✭Gusser09


    I get offered OT but what's the pont? Taxed into oblivion. I'd rather live my life and enjoy my spare time than work for a few extra lousy quid.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,619 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    What does the proposal actually call for then?

    What are civil servants proposing, 80% of the pay, 100% of the pay for less hours or 100% of the pay for the "same" hours but over 4 days.

    Because it honestly looks like a number of civil servants shouting for a 4 day week with no accountability or metrics in place to justify it. "Those things will be answered later" isn't an answer without even the base set of data being available (my guess is they just don't measure them in case it puts them in a bad light which is what most people suspect already as you've seen on this thread).

    So, complete elimination of CS overtime with a 4 day week is OK? Good to know.

    But again I would point out the Worksharing Scheme which allows staff to apply to work reduced weeks already, and has been in place for over 20 years.

    Many companies have these schemes, this is one role split among (usually 2) people, is the proposal to hire more CS to handle a 4 day week? Again, light on details and trying to defend the CS without any actual data to back it up (while asking for questions) and you wonder why people are sceptical of the proposal...

    This is your opportunity to provide answers, if you don't have them, that's OK, but it also means you can't defend the record of the CS credibly.



  • Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You're demanding answers to questions about a proposal that hasn't even been made yet.

    I will correct you on one point. Worksharing is not job-sharing. It is not one role split between two people.

    Honestly, it seems like you're just looking for a row. Not giving you it.

    Have a nice afternoon.



  • Registered Users Posts: 332 ✭✭trigger26


    Trying to compare companies to the civil service is a round about you never get off, they are very different animals.

    having worked in both it depends what you want to put up with, neither sectors are or will be great in every way. I don’t get the hate the CS gets, it’s not a secret cult that has exclusive access, anyone can join, there are jobs/ competitions listed every week.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,619 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    This was your ask:

    I am happy to answer questions when they are asked in a civilised manner.

    None of the questions relating to a 4 day week in post #374 were actually answered (or even need the full proposal to make educated guesses and discuss) which makes your responses just about blindly defending the civil service and obfuscating and diverting discussion about the process by pretending to be able to answer questions (this is a common defense tactic).

    Which is fine, but we can stop pretending otherwise.



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  • Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    That post was a reply to another poster, about a completely different matter. Not something I asked.

    Again, I repeat, you are demanding answers to questions on a proposal that hasn't been made yet. As far as I know, not even drafted yet.

    Your attitude already gives away that you're primed to attack, you are not looking for a civilised discussion.

    So now can you please stop pretending otherwise.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,619 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    The fact that no proposal has been drafted does not negate the ability to discuss the topic. Continuing attempts to shut down discussion because you don't like it does not help either.

    My original point that has not been negated by anyone is that the civil service is a poor choice for a 4 day work week as the organisation does not have any data to backup this stance, this has not changed and that doing so would reduce the chances of a 4 day week being adopted elsewhere.

    The fact that they are well known as an inefficient organisation (as can be seen by the majority of comments on the thread and hasn't been refuted with any evidence) further backs up this point.

    Which leads into the comment that started the thread and no one on the CS side has provided any answers for:

    What do you reckon? Could our famously efficient civil servants cram their many duties into 4 days instead of 5?

    This is someone who would be in favour of a 4 day week otherwise.

    The lack of answers also makes it extremely difficult not to make posts seem like an attack on the CS. You put yourself out there to answer questions, were given the chance and reneged so don't be surprised if sentiment remains as is whether it is myself or someone else asking the unliked questions.



  • Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




    Far from shut down the topic, I have discussed it at length if you care to actually read the thread.

    If you had, you'd understand that many civil servants are already working 4 days weeks and have been for over 20 years since worksharing was introduced in 2001.

    On the other hand, your contribution to the thread so far, has been posts peppered with negativity and inaccuracies and an atittude which experience tells me would not lead to a productive discussion with you.

    Your mind is clearly already made up on the subject. So I'll pass in wasting your time and mine trying to convince you otherwise.

    Enjoy the rest of your day.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭AyeGer


    From my own perspective I have no interest in working overtime, its less hours i want to do not more.



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