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Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,804 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    essentially an cold war relic

    Ah come off it ffs, it's not like Ukraine would be given 1st gen F16's.

    There are things called upgrades. Maybe you consider the Patriots, Leopards, Abrams, Challengers, M270's & Bradley's as cold war relics?



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    It's the patriot is a Cold war relic why aren't F16s which are heading to 5 decade old and alot older than patriots

    I don't make the rules



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,804 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    They are called upgrades. Maybe you believe the like of the new electric Mustangs are relics?

    Pretty much all the equipment I listed were developed/deployed during the cold war, are still in production to date and all have been upgraded so much, they pretty much just physically resemble their first gen models, but their capabilities are cutting edge. They are far from relics.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    You much have missed the various posts claiming the patriot was a cold war relics hence why I said /asked about F16s being Relic's being they have been flying close to 50 years in some cases .

    I believe the patriots , Abrams,IFVs are modern war fighting equipment, ballistic missiles date to the 1930s/1940s nobody's calling them Relic's from antiquity



  • Registered Users Posts: 510 ✭✭✭AerLingus747


    The evidence is right there... ChatGPT has the same amount of letters as Clippy2.... it's so obvious, if you only did some research



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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    I'm not making assumptions,you took one article about one weapons test and are using that as an assumption all ICBMs can now intercepted while the general consensus is there is currently no system currently operational to stop ICBMS



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,683 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    from 2020 and this is what the US chose to make public, if you have an effective defence you would just stay quiet about it...

    If you have a completely ineffective defence you'd probably try and stay quiet about it also.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,412 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    No one is currently stating they are going to send F-16s to Ukraine.... yet.

    But it will happen at some stage. They are setting the stage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 510 ✭✭✭AerLingus747


    I would imagine there is a far better capability in place than what is publicised... you can piece a lot of anecdotal evidence together to get a pretty good case of it. But yes, on paper, there is nothing capable of intercepting ICBM's without some sort of luck involved.

    I imagine the US want to keep it this way, not to fool Russia, but China.

    Similar to what they know about Russian tactics, after an ICBM has travelled through the detection systems, land and sea based Aegis, the new ground protection system etc... there is 3-5 mins to make a call on using an atmospheric nuclear airburst to catch an ICBM at Apogee and before MIRV's are deployed... This is why Hypersonics are considered more dangerous, reduced reaction time, no ballistic trajectory, when systems are able to track/intercept, it's at lower altitude, and closer range, where interception and detonation can still have quite an effect. Hence the development of more advanced OTH detection systems, both ground and satellite based.



  • Registered Users Posts: 510 ✭✭✭AerLingus747


    On this... we're still waiting on further tests of the Satan 2, which haven't emerged.

    There was also supposed testing in the Barents sea missile range 2 weeks back, which nothing has been publicised about. Usually the Russian's are parading this info 5 mins after it happens..

    Both of which are quite telling.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭victor8600


    More prison cells are waiting for Russian rocket designers?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Reliably intercepting ICBMs - nullifying every MIRV - is beyond the capabilities of current missile defense systems.

    The assumption is that interception capabilities will get better in the near future. Largely because USA pulled out of the ABM treaty 20 years ago and having been pouring money into ABM capabilities ever since.

    That assumption is what is driving the development of hypersonic missiles and glide vehicles - real ones, not fake ones like Kinzhal. Everyone is working on them - Russia, China, India. Even North Korea is working on them. So by the time missile defense systems can defend current threats, there will be next-gen threats which go beyond those systems.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,616 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Again, actions, if russian threats were credible, NATO making the amount of offensive equipment available to Ukraine would not be happening.

    That was the worry at the start of the war/special operation, it's not a credible one anymore.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    But that doesn't explain the ICBM threat, that threat has been there since the 1960s nothing about the current strategy has changed or been changed due to Ukraine,

    The counter to some country launching ICBMS will involve other countries also launching their Own ICBMs in return,

    We're not talking about an over hyped ballistic missile that's being the topic of numerous posts claiming it's an unstoppable super weapon, when it was repeatedly shown as nothing more than a Standard ballistic missile dropped from an aircraft,



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,840 ✭✭✭Polar101


    Sorry lads, but F-16's are off the table.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,579 ✭✭✭Field east


    Our ability to put 2 and 2 together is quiet weak. Why , in Gods name , would a number of countries be training UKr pilots to fly F16s’ if no country has any intention of providing same in the near future?



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Tell me who's giving them f16s then considering no nato or eu countries had said that they are planning or willing to them F16s, this was the case early in the year when the UK said they were looking to see what jets they could give them to ok we're not sending any jets to Ukraine but we will train them at our flight schools, so as it stands they will learn on either hawk trainers or typhoons which aren't F16s and they won't send typhoons because it would weaken their own defense capabilities.

    We're hearing about training but zero commitments to send Western Jets,we had this previously with the secret A10 training program for Ukrainian pilots, which to turned out to be a Ukrainan business man flying lads to Vegas to fly on gaming PCs



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,616 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    I think Darth Putin is ahead of you here.

    NATO now know that russia is toothless and are acting accordingly, their ICBM threat likely isn't credible either (or certainly not to the level that NATO feel worried about supplying offensive weapons to Ukraine). Remembering that NATO will never attack russia, it will be left to russia to implode itself in isolation. They know that what russia has been developing (Kinzhal, modern tanks and fighter jets) are capable of being stopped and russian corruption has stripped back everything else.

    But again, you're arguing against the actions that have been taken by NATO countries that has occurred and implying vague threats that should have happened due to those occurrences. It's a mistake I see you making time and again, and I get you're trying to provide some balance, but the actions haven't been backing you up thus far.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,452 ✭✭✭jmreire


    And the first one they caught, and who is spilling the beans on other, higher-up's, who will in turn spill even more beans and so on and so on. until it eventually reaches Putin himself !!!



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,452 ✭✭✭jmreire


    To survive in Put9ns Russia, every man woman and child is corrupt. They have to be!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,207 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    I think the answer is pretty obvious: no NATO or EU countries are willing to give them F16s yet i.e. they'll happily transfer them when they have an order accepted for F22s...



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,616 ✭✭✭✭astrofool




  • Registered Users Posts: 8,452 ✭✭✭jmreire


    One very big advantage the AK47 has over more complicated ( but technically superior) makes is its simplicity and cost. I mentioned previously how they were being manufactured in small sheds at the rear of ordinary houses in Pakistan Whole streets were in full production of not only AK47's but other small arms as well. So they are very cheap and easy to produce. and damn effective for what they do. During the Vietnam war, they took a very heavy toll on US troops. despite them having technically superior weapons. I would not underestimate them under any circumstances.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Nobody is getting f22s either America only and thats due to be replaced soon,I think you mean F35s it's likely looking that way,but even at that most countries will keep F16s even with F35s because the f16 is a pure fighter jet extremely effective in the dog fighting role , while F35 is an amazing Aircraft and only getting better,in the current climate the f16 has an edge even though Its moved to a more multirole strike aircraft over the years ,



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    I remember coming across a lee Enfield 303 stamped with markings and Enfield trades from ww1 that was bought from a Pakistani market but made in the 2000s in the same market



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,452 ✭✭✭jmreire


    If you think the US system is a shambles Charlie, wait until you see Putins one...



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Claims of Ukrainans will only receive 12 +weeks of training on western aircraft,it currently takes 12 months+ to qualify on western Aircraft such as F16s and F18s

    What they should be focused on is making their mig 29s and su30 more lethal with Western style weapons,the current tactics for 2 Ukrainian aircraft is to fly low and pop up to fire unguided rockets before turning fast and returning to base ,

    The moment any Aircraft flys at altitude they will be targeted by Anti aircraft missles,






  • Registered Users Posts: 82,429 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Don’t know much about that 12 months qualification under normal circumstances but I assume that under normal circumstances the length of time is not a constraint to learning what’s needed for straight combat operations. They don’t need to be carrier certified, for example, there’s some training cut right there. Etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,452 ✭✭✭jmreire


    They are a remarkable people.....if it can be bored, milled, ground, cut, welded etc. if they cant repair it they will make a new one, and it will work. All in a workshop on the side of the road with very basic equipment. I once saw a truck mounter generator in action, and climbed up to have a closer look at the engine driving the generator. After cleaning away several layers of grime and debris, the manufacturers name became visible. It was an ancient Rolls Royce Engine. I must have a look for the pics I took.

    The Less Enfield was pretty powerful weapon in its day too. Effective range 550 yds, Maximum range 3'000 yds ( Wiki) Even at the 3'000 yd limit, I would not like to be the one stopping it.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    F16s pilots don't Generally do carrier ops,

    It wouldn't make sense given them a quarter of the training of the training other pilots would receive,If anything they would be putting pilots and Aircraft at risk



This discussion has been closed.
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