Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

RavenP · 21-05-2023 6:09pm

@AerLingus747 "don't you get it... no body want to attack Ireland, so you don't need any air cover, even with high level politicians... nobody will want to attack Ireland or the people in it from the air... plus the RAF are just a few mins away, they'll do it no probs."

There are two problems with this reasoning, firstly we canot be sure, or even reasonably confident, that the threat level you mention will stay that way, and since it takes time to develop Air Defence capability, perhaps a decade, we potentialy need to be thinking about AD now. The second problem is that the UK is no longer a reliable partner, and it is making unhappy noise, via military magazines, but also in the Tory press, the Daily Telegraph, Daily Express in particular, to say that they are not happy that Ireland appears rely on the UK for defence a century after indy. This may mean hat the UK is considering withdrwing its assistance, or asking Ireland to pay for it, which, you can bet, will be no cheaper than Ireland acquiring AD capability itself.

Other problems, as discussed in the thread above, is that the RAF is no longer the force it was, and in a conflict situation, it would not have the aircraft or aircrews to protect both Britain and Ireland.

AerLingus747 · 21-05-2023 6:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120624591#Comment_120624591

you missed the /s

Manic Moran · 21-05-2023 6:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120624240#Comment_120624240

[MOD]Don’t push it. Moderator has already addressed the issue, you are yourself delving into back-seat-moderation and insult territory[/MOD]

saabsaab · 21-05-2023 6:48pm

It's a head in the sand form of denial when one country threatens another and those threatened don't accept the threat as being real.

In war or even peace there can be many reasons why a country will attack another. Denial of resources to a rival, making an example of said country or just a a short cut or weak point to another target. Even changing a government in order to replace it with a more favourable regime.

It's too late to start to prepare for an attack when it happens.

delusiondestroyer · 21-05-2023 7:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120624591#Comment_120624591

Facts Are we have decades apon decades of safe skies.

The outlandish statement is that we desperately need air cover reality and facts state otherwise.

Ye cant even attempt to explain how anyone would even attempt to attack Ireland which is genuinely laughable its so out of the range of possibility you cant even attempt to make up a scenario that would even be semi realistic lol

The Facts side with my statements 0 major incidents in years

No urgency to acquire aircraft as they aren't need thank god.

If what you lot were saying on here was anywhere even near reality we would be buying aircraft so i stand by my point i am indeed correct.

saabsaab · 21-05-2023 7:30pm

This seems to be our best bet..

A recent Royal United Services Institute (RUSI) paper written by two military analysts suggested that the Gripen stands out as the "most suitable candidate in terms of operational requirements" for potential Western jets for Ukraine. Many of the points they raised to make that case demonstrate why that aircraft is also well-suited for Ireland's requirements. For one, they note, the Gripen "was designed from the outset for ease of maintenance, and can be refueled, re-armed and given basic maintenance by teams of just six ground crew using two vehicles on small airbases or highways in cold weather."

"Moreover," the analysts wrote, "only one of each crew needs to be a highly trained maintainer; the rest can be conscripts or even troops."

Such a design is undoubtedly highly favorable for a country with no experience maintaining modern fighters.

The Gripen can also carry the European Meteor beyond visual range air-to-air missile as well as long-range RBS-15 anti-ship missiles. Both capabilities could enable Ireland to swiftly neutralize threats to its airspace and waters from long distances. These capabilities alone would represent a verifiable game-changer for Irish defenses. Also, the Gripen's short takeoff and landing (STOL) capabilities enabled by its canards allow it to operate from small or even makeshift runways such as civilian highways. That feature could also prove ideal for Ireland. A fleet of 20 Gripens distributed across small airfields throughout the country would make all the difference for Irish air and maritime defense.

Such a procurement would also show the rest of Europe that Ireland is serious about addressing the many severe shortcomings that presently exist in its national defenses.

RavenP · 21-05-2023 7:38pm

@delusiondestroyer

If the facts are decades of no major incidents, then surely you would argue that the UK does not need any air defences either? Would you make that argument?

delusiondestroyer · 21-05-2023 7:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120624904#Comment_120624904

You do realize that the UK is in NATO right?

saabsaab · 21-05-2023 8:23pm

More Russian potential threats..

'The Defence Forces has confirmed it monitored four Russian navy and commercial vessels as they travelled off the Irish coast last week.

The group included the Admiral Grigorovich, which is armed with cruise missiles and has been used in attacks on Ukraine since the start of Russian’s invasion in February 2022.

Russia military ships, or ships connected to the Russia Government, have become frequent visitors to Irish waters in recent years prompting concern among some experts that they are mapping or interfering with subsea cables off the Irish west coast.

The latest group also included the Kama, which regularly accompanies the Grigorovich and acts as a support vessel. The other two ships were not identified.'

delusiondestroyer · 21-05-2023 8:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120625047#Comment_120625047

Source?

You have already stated in a previous post that we have already been attacked by the Russians....

RavenP · 21-05-2023 9:40pm

@delusiondestroyer

"You do realize that the UK is in NATO right?"

The UK is a sovereign state, like Ireland. It could choose to shut down the RAF, even leave nato, and no one could do nothing, and by your criterion of need , which is decades without any action carried out against it, is does not need an airforce.

Reduction ad absurdum....

Your argument is clearly ridiculous if you say one country does not need an airforce if the criterion is met, but not another country of the criterion is met. I have come to the conclusion that your motive here is no more to prove that you are terribly clever. At least everyone can see that you are failing to do that.

delusiondestroyer · 21-05-2023 10:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120625299#Comment_120625299

Except it doesn't choose that it chooses to be in NATO thus why it has an Airforce...comparing Ireland to the UK is apples and Oranges also the UK has many enemies unlike Ireland polar opposites basically its shocking I've to explain this to you.

You have been ranting and raving for fighter jets for pages now for a threat you cant even explain and yet believe you are 100% correct its genuinely hilarious.

The only one that can't answer basic questions here is you.

You tried to be clever with your UK example and got embarrassed the UK has an Airforce because it is required to do so and has actual use for one and is a big player on the global stage.

Ireland doesn't have an Airforce because it is a neutral country with 0 credible threats as proven by your inability to give even one example of one and how they would attack Ireland.

Checkmate.

Ozymandius2011 · 21-05-2023 11:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120593594#Comment_120593594

They still have a strong navy which is what matters and they have been mapping critical infrastructure throughout Europe and I heard on the radio (RTE Radio 1) a commentator saying its believed Russia has been mining infrastructure across Europe. Ireland is the gap in the Western defences and an obvious "back door". I'm glad the absurd "Triple Lock", that prevented us even evacuating our own citizens from Sudan recently looks like it might go. Reports today that SF and the Greens are now looking at changing it, in the Greens case replacing the requirement for it to be an UN mission to a mission of an international organisation. Its absurd to give a hostile state like Russia a veto on our foreign policy.

RavenP · 22-05-2023 12:24am

@delusiondestroyer

Ha Ha Ha,

If you think that anyone "requires" the UK to do anything you have shown you have little grasp on what is happening out there. How anyone after Brexit could think that the UK is "required" to do anything....The UK left the EU, a sysemic change, it could decide to leave NATO just as easily. If the UK has demonstrated one thing, it can leave whatever it wants. It could even, if it wasnts stay in NATO and get rid of its airforce. It actually considered doing this in the 60s, in the belief (premature) that AA missiles would make airpower ineffective.

And you mention threats to the UK. Who are those threats? Can you be specific? The UK is sandwiched at the edge of Europe, protected by Germany and France to one side, America to the other? A very safe part of the world. As you yourself have said Russia is a paper Tiger, who else has an airforce that can attack the UK that is not already its ally? If you cannot tell me a credible, clear and present danger to the UK that means it needs an airforce then I am going to have to put it to you that the "paper tiger" may not be Russia, but you!

And if you are going to paraphrase my arguments in your misfired missive, at least get me right!!! You say I have been, "ranting and raving for fighter jets for pages now". If you actually read before firing off, you will notice I am actually sceptical of Ireland's need for jet fighters, but you are all rhetoric, obfuscation, no grasp of detail, so I am not surprised.

saabsaab · 22-05-2023 8:44am

Having a few fighters in this day and age for defence and monitoring our seas and airways is hardly a big ask. It makes sense to anyone who believes in an independent Ireland. Even more than having more ships.

delusiondestroyer · 22-05-2023 9:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120625711#Comment_120625711

Another 3 paragraphs no examples just another strawman...why am I not surprised...

Allow me to show you how its done.

Russia is a direct and credible threat to the UK as the UK is part of NATO and a big player in the Ukrainian defence from training there troops to sending them massive amount of military hardware and ordinance to kill Russian soldiers with...they are essentially fighting a proxy war under the guise of aiding a state defending itself.

In the event of a conflict breaking out the UK will be expected to go to war if NATO article 5 is triggered.

I am glad you finally learned abit from what i was saying about geographical safety, just as Ireland is safe as houses between the UK and US the UK would indeed be a nightmare to invade nigh on impossible because of where it is.

Contrast this with Ireland then a neutral country in no alliances, a non factor military and is of no strategic or resource value an attack on Ireland would simply be a waste of resources. In short will never happen.

As i said all your fancy words amount to nothing as they aren't rooted in logic or reality just dressed up strawmen.

Anyways my assessment is correct and is backed up by the fact that there will be very little meaningful money spent on our military thank god common sense prevails.

Dohvolle · 22-05-2023 10:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120625985#Comment_120625985

The only thing worse than not having the capability is having it, and losing it. While initial cost may be a factor, other european nations with smaller economies than ours demonstrate that maintaining this capability is easily achieved. The sooner we begin, the cheaper the outlay will be.

Manic Moran · 22-05-2023 1:56pm

"Contrast this with Ireland then a neutral country in no alliances, a non factor military and is of no strategic or resource value an attack on Ireland would simply be a waste of resources. In short will never happen."

Neutrality does not have a track record of actually being respected if the nations in question don't seem to care very much about it, plus there is a minor matter that under the laws of war, neutral countries must have a method of enforcing their neutrality, else the belligerent powers have the authority to violate that neutrality. It's the reason for the emergency purchase of MTBs at the start of the Emergency: If the Naval Service couldn't keep one side out of Irish waters, even nominally, the other side would. The saving grace is that as opposed to, say, Belgium, a full overrunning of the country is not likely (nor required). Which at least means that such a repelling is much more attainable as a practical matter.

If I may quote the ICRC on the matter: "the neutral State must also take measures to ensure and enforce the protection of its neutrality in the neutral space for which it is responsible in relation to the belligerent parties and in particular their armed forces [...] the neutral State must ensure respect for its neutrality, if necessary using force to repel any violation of its territory. [...]It is generally accepted that if belligerent forces enter neutral territory and the neutral authority is unable or unwilling to expel or intern them, the adverse party is entitled to undertake their hot pursuit and attack them there. It may even seek compensation from the neutral State for this breach of neutrality"

In other words, under the current environment, Ireland lacks the capability to meet its requirements to remain neutral under the extant legal framework.

I am astounded that you may say that Ireland has no "strategic or resource value", given its position alongside the lines of communication between North America and Europe.

delusiondestroyer · 22-05-2023 3:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120627128#Comment_120627128

I don't think you actually understand these communication lines you keep referencing and how impractical it would be to destroy them. Its astounding that you don't realize the consequence's of such an attack as well, you must think the US and UK will be just licking windows while this is going on...

Its not hard to understand that invading Ireland is a death sentence as the UK and US would destroy any invader if for nothing else their own interests. If you want to dispute this please give reasons as to why the UK and US would stand idle while a hostile power occupies Ireland. It simply wouldn't be allowed to happen. But if for some outlandishly ridiculous reason it was let happen the DF wouldn't be able to stop a determined aggressor anyway and the investment was a waste to begin with.

The only ones that think Ireland is under any serious threat of attack or of any great significance in the global picture are the people on this thread and other outlier's.

delusiondestroyer · 22-05-2023 4:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120627128#Comment_120627128

https://www.wired.com/story/russia-undersea-internet-cables/

Read that it quickly dispels the myths around cutting cables, you seem to have the idea that they snip a cable and bam internet gone... its no the case.

"That means Russia snipping a handful of cables in the Atlantic, where its submarines have been spotted, would disturb the global internet very little. In fact, even if it ruptured every single cable in the Atlantic Ocean, traffic could still be re-routed the other way, across the Pacific."

So yes I stand by my statement Ireland is of very little strategic or resource value on its own to any attacker and would be a waste of resources.

Manic Moran · 22-05-2023 4:42pm

In 1949, the US pushed very hard for Iceland to become a member of NATO, not a position universally shared by other countries which didn't see much benefit to inviting in a country which had no military and which would, in effect, become an additional burden upon them to protect. The reason is location, location, location.

NATO is dependent upon the the lines of communication from North America to fulfil its task in Europe, just as the wars in Europe have been dependent upon them for over a century. This is evident even today as Ukraine is dependent on those same lines of communication, and Ireland's in a perfect position from which to interdict them. A group of submarines waiting for a convoy to engage will find Irish territorial waters a very suitable staging area: There's nothing Ireland has which can do anything about them, and if Ireland won't do anything about them, NATO will. At least Ireland would be neutrally ineffective against both. At least air operations would be visible, you just end up with battles over and on Ireland as the fight to interdict the lines of communication goes on. It's worth noting that, Iceland, though neutral, was also invaded and occupied by the UK (and later US) because of that same reasoning. We don't like to talk about it much, the good guys violating neutrality and all that, but it's a reality. Ireland is at the gateway to the North Atlantic, which is kindof a key feature of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation.

roadmaster · 22-05-2023 4:45pm

The Good Senators case was briefly in court today

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/secret-raf-intercept-arrangement-cannot-be-considered-by-courts-claims-state-1479176.html

RavenP · 22-05-2023 5:32pm

@delusiondestroyer You see, DD, the problem with your arguments is you forget the **** you post!

This morning you suggested that thee UK needed an airforce (unlike Ireland) because,

“Russia is a direct and credible threat to the UK (my highlights) as the UK is part of NATO and a big player in the Ukrainian defence from training there troops to sending them massive amount of military hardware and ordinance to kill Russian soldiers with...they are essentially fighting a proxy war under the guise of aiding a state defending itself”

Now I happen to, broadly ,agree with that. But it is strangely at odds with your earlier statementts about Russia, which you previously have suggested is no threat to anyone.

Can I remind you of your previous comments when you were suggesting Russia was no threat to Ireland.

On 19-05-23 4:12 pm you said, “i think Russia has ran its race in the Ukraine and looking for an off ramp, they cant (sic) deal with what they currently have on there (sic) plate without attacking an (sic) NATO nation. As there (sic) power projection is pathetic (they would be mauled)”.

Then on 21-05-23 at 9:55 am you state, “ You talk as if there is a 2nd cold war coming which is not the case and never will be..Russia is collapsing in everyway (sic) possible from population to military”.

How can this “pathetic” force be a threat to Britain, a nation which you have earlier eulogized for its air power? You see, DD, it is thought that the sign of a good debater is the ability to argue both sides of an argument in different debates, but the sign of a **** debater when they try and argue both sides of the argument in the same debate.

I will hesitate to use therm "checkmate" that you used earlier, if only because I must suppose you have not the ability to actually recognise one. I think I must conclude, and I imagine most other readers will agree, that with you we have been playing chess...but with the proverbial pigeon….

delusiondestroyer · 22-05-2023 5:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120627941#Comment_120627941

Again you are incorrect in what you are saying about these lines of communication you dont understand what you are talking about.

If the US or UK invades Ireland then our DF's are irrelevant in any case which is what i think you are trying to imply by your Iceland comparison...

The US doesnt need Ireland as it already has the UK so location location is irrelevant in this case.

I think you just need to accept that Ireland in a large conflict on its own is not going to do much and thats gonna be the case jets or no jets.

delusiondestroyer · 22-05-2023 5:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120628152#Comment_120628152

Ok you seem to be fabricating a counter argument by dragging the UK into comparison with Ireland.

There is no comparison between Ireland and the UK, there is a near 0% chance of Ireland being attack by Russia or anyone else for that matter where as the UK is a war fighting nation with a legit military that is indirectly involved in many conflicts there chance of being attacked by Russia would be credible, that and being in NATO all reasons they need an airforce. 100% Russia is a pathetic force, i didn't say the attack would do much or likely for even that matter.

You seem to be struggling with the fact that more than one thing can be true at once.

You seem desperate to get other "readers" on side as if it adds credibility to what you are saying the whole thread could side with you it wouldn't make what your saying any less nonsensical.

Ironically enough your last paragraph sums yourself up.

RavenP · 22-05-2023 5:54pm

@delusiondestroyer While the US could invade Ireland with ease, Britain would struggle to invade Ireland unless they threw all or most of their military at the project. Remember they had 25.000 troops at one stage in NI, a territory they already held, and failed to entirely suppress the PIRA. In a land conflict in Ireland they would want at least a 4 to 1 ratio against the DF, which with reserves and ex-servicemen pressed into service could probably be brought up to 20,000 quickly enough. This means they would need to commit the entire British army to the task. Britain is not the power it once was.

delusiondestroyer · 22-05-2023 6:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120628267#Comment_120628267

They would obviously mobilize for war and it would largely depend on the strategy they would imply if they took the gloves off introduced strict martial law and weren't too bother by civilian casualties ala Russia in Ukraine it would be game over fairly quick for Ireland. I agree but just like German isnt the power it once was.. the capacity is still there.

RavenP · 22-05-2023 6:02pm

@Delusiondestroyer So Russia is no threat to Ireland because it is weak, but a threat to Britain because it is strong? Pull the other one. It is a threat to Britain and the war could spread out side the initial combatants because Ireland is, for all intents and purposes an integral part of the west. And if we were attacked, we would have, unlike Britain, no meaningful air defence. To say that it is impossible that a war 100 miles away might, just spread to Ireland is simply not credible. It might spread, it might not, but it is quite believable that it might. That is all the justification Ireland needs for enhanced AD, although as I have said already, I favour cheaper AA missile based defences over jets.

Regarding the retort you gave me about the last line, what age are you, are you in wee school? That is the most pathetic, "same to you" reply I have heard in just some time. I must mark your work, "Must do better"!

Manic Moran · 22-05-2023 6:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120628179#Comment_120628179

I'm not sure quite how I'm incorrect about them. A century of conflict, through to the current day, has shown that they are utterly indispensable to European security.

Again, view the example of Iceland. There was almost zero chance of a German invasion, yet it was still considered geographically important enough that the Allied powers occupied the place.

G_R · 22-05-2023 6:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120628179#Comment_120628179

Do you care to answer the point that has been realised several times (and unless I've missed it) completely ignored by you that any conflict would not likely be Big Country A Vs Ireland, I would be Big Country A Vs Ireland and probably the rest of the EU/NATO, so we would only need to defend against a small percentage of their forces. I'd also suggest that in the above scenario, the UK would (rightly) say sorry guys, gotta look after ourselves here, you're on your own.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120627128#Comment_120627128

Also note that you haven't bothered to reply to the very detailed post which shows that we're are not currently fulfilling our responsibilities as a neutral country. Any comment on this?

Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

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