Cost of a United Ireland and the GFA

Stop diverting and answer the points in the post:

Huge difference. Sinn Fein go to PIRA commemorations and glorify the PIRA, and say there was "no alternative" to the PIRA armed struggle etc, whose aim let us remember was to get the Brits out a have a united socialist Ireland.

The DUP does not glorify the Shankhill butchers or the UVF of the troubles and say there was "no alternative".

Huge difference.

Even in the Referendum in N.I. on the future of NI in 1973, where there was free and fair voting open to everyone, SF/IRA set off bombs that day and 59% of the electorate ( a turnout not different to referendums here or elsewhere in most countries where referendums are held ) voted to stay part of the UK. This despite . Gerry Fitt, leader of the SDLP, said he had organised a boycott to stop an escalation in violence as the pira threatened to set off even more bombs that day of the referendum....four was all it could attempt to set off on the day. Despite his calls and some other nationalists boycotting, 59% of the adults in N Ireland voted that day, even though they thought they were risking life and limb to do so. And 98.9% of those who did vote wanted to stay part of the UK. b

The last time I heard the term PIRA was from somebody in the Tory party in the 1990s.

Any time I hear the term, Cecil Parkinson in an Etonian accent or David Trimble pops up in my head for some reason.

Just an observation.

Anyway back on topic.

You have a very short memory. Remember Paisley and Robinson in their Ulster Resistance red berets and military garb on the 10th November 1986 threating violence.

“Every Ulsterman must be recruited to resist – by whatever means the situation demands – those who would drive us against our wills into an all-Ireland republic.”

The following year, Ulster Resistance joined forces with the two established loyalist paramilitary groups, the Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) and Ulster Defence Association (UDA), to smuggle an enormous arsenal of weapons into the province, including about 200 Czech-made assault rifles called VZ58s and tens of thousands of rounds of ammunition.

who said they did?

The DUP regularly meet with Loyalist Paramilitaries NOW, and receive input from said Paramilitaries on what they will or wont accept, Francis. Jesus you really don't have a notion, do you?

There's a difference between community outreach and giving Loyalist paramilitaries a veto.

Of course you retort with an irrelevant anecdote though, particularly impressive that this particular anecdote is just a second hand personal insult. What relevance does the former leader of SF who stepped down five years ago and hasn't been active in politics in three years to the topic of the DUP reneging on a deal because the UPRG didn't allow it?

Also, you'll note there is currently controversy specifically because it has come to light that Ian McLaughlin of the DUP was involved with West Belfast UPRG?

As usual though, rather than address a very real current connection, you'll hark on with your, 'but whatabout SF' and gurn about things that happened 20-30+ years ago.

The difference is SF members were at least sometimes IRA members and vice versa? And SF attends commemorations for PIRA, and condones same? Ever see a mainstream unionist politician condoning a Shankhill butcher or UVF man from the troubles?

The difference is SF members were at least sometimes IRA members and vice versa?  Some would say hundreds if not thousands.

Were any DUP politicians ever involved in para-military activity / ever members of the Shankhill Butchers, UVF etc?

Set up by some members of the DUP as a pressure group. It was said " Loyalists would use democratic methods "

When it because clear the organisation got hijacked by more militant people the DUP left.

Were any DUP politicians ever involved in para-military activity (as in murdering anybody, or planting explosives etc ) / ever members of the Shankhill Butchers, UVF etc?

The difference is SF members were at least sometimes IRA members and vice versa? Some would say hundreds if not thousands.

As a result of the protest (you call it attack but nobody was injured and there was very little damage done), Robinson was convicted of "unlawful assembly" and was fined £17,500. That was the price of a small house in them days. That is the justice Protestants could expect in the 26 counties for merely " unlawful assembly" . His car was petrol bombed and attacked as he left court to return to N.I.  

Contrast that to thousands of explosions and so many people killed by the PIRA. SF members were at least sometimes IRA members and vice versa? Some would say hundreds if not thousands.

You're a spoofer, Francis. You've claimed that no DUP members were members of paramilitaries, when proven completely wrong, you've pivoted to trying to claim that the DUP members didn't MEAN to set up a Paramilitary Organisation and that they just wanted a little pressure group, when proven completely wrong on this, you've pivoted to, 'well their terrorism wasn't really that bad' and then the usual, 'but whatabout the IRA'.

So going back to your original point, instead of hand-waving and smoke and mirrors, are you ready to acknowledge that you were unequivocally incorrect when you suggested that no DUP members had been members of paramilitaries, and also unequivocally incorrect when you stated that the Ulster Resistance was merely intended to be a pressure group.

For the record, two Gardai were hospitalised in Clontibret and the arms imported by Ulster Resistance are linked to 70 deaths.

As for Robinson's, 'punishment'....he led a mob to attack a town and received a fine instead of a judicial sentence so he could keep his cushy government seat. Oh poor him.

Paisley himself was not at the protest in Ci. Monaghan. He said afterwards the protest "shouldn't have been done".

Quote from the BBC report on the matter : "On 7 August 1986, Peter Robinson marched with a group of loyalists into the County Monaghan village of Clontibret, in protest against what he claimed were inadequate security measures along the Irish border following Margaret Thatcher's signing of the Anglo-Irish Agreement.

The agreement had given the Republic of Ireland a constitutional role in the affairs of Northern Ireland for the first time.

Mr Robinson was subsequently fined £15,000 for his role in the protest."

There was nobody injured, no bones broken. It was the RUC who tipped off the Gardai they were on the way.

Mainstream Unionist politicians were not in Ulster Resistance or involved in any way if and when it imported arms.

Contrast that to thousands of explosions and so many people killed by the PIRA. SF members were at least sometimes IRA members and vice versa? Some would say hundreds if not thousands.

NB there was more violence involved from Republicans towards Robinson's car etc after his court appearance in Co. Louth. Petrol bombs and riot? His car was damaged was it not? Were any Republicans fined the price of a house for that? At least the unionists could see or get a taste of what justice they could expect in a United Ireland when one was fined the price of a house for "unlawful assembly".

Not defending Robinson, just being devils advocate; many Protestants / unionists were murdered along the border by gangs who slipped across the border and back again. 92 to 93% of the murders in Co. Fermanagh were carried out by Republicans, most of them unsolved.

Stop digging a hole for yourself. Robinson was arrested for "unlawful assembly", after the RUC tipped off the Gardai, Robinson get a taste of what justice he could expect in a United Ireland when he was fined the price of a house for "unlawful assembly". Very serious crime in the Republic "unlawful assembly". Well, it was for a Protestant or Unionist to be involved in. Paisley was not involved in the protest. Both left "Ulster Resistance".

Were any DUP politicians ever involved in para-military activity (as in murdering anybody, or planting explosives etc ) / ever members of the Shankhill Butchers, UVF etc? It seems the biggest crime you can find is someone assembling at night time in a village on the other side of the border, to highlight what he claimed were inadequate security measures along the border. For that you get fined the price of a house. And nearly killed as you leave the jurisdiction / car attacked and damaged etc.

Contrast that to thousands of explosions and so many people killed by the PIRA. SF members were at least sometimes IRA members and vice versa? Some would say hundreds if not thousands. Not saying some of the Unionist Politicians did not go over the top sometimes with the rhetoric or protests, but in the context of the times when Republicans were seen by many to be ethnic cleansing along the border, no comparison.

Waste of time, Francie.....wait for the goalposts to shift again.....but did any of them do it on a Thursday while driving a Morris Minor?

I didn't claim he was.

Is that bar now? Involvement in the UVF or Shankill Butchers?

Is setting up a paramilitary group or being involved in paramilitary activity only serious if it is the above 2?

You asked a question, got your answer, shifted the goalposts and are now pretending.

No I cannot connect the DUP to the Shankill Butchers or the UVF.

I can however connect them in a direct line to paramilitaries.

You seem to think that setting up your own paramilitary group is ok...why is that? How can you claim they are not connected to paramilitaries when they set up their own paramilitary group?