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General British politics discussion thread

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,540 ✭✭✭political analyst


    The strike was already on at the time. The far-left political tendency on the doctors' picket lines is alarming.

    A senior doctor who stepped down from a BMA leadership role said the current leaders of the BMA haven't "read the room".




  • Registered Users Posts: 68,545 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Unions being left wing shouldn't surprise a political analyst, surely?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,540 ✭✭✭political analyst


    I'm not surprised by militancy in a trade union but it's not usually associated with physicians. One would have assumed they'd regard bolshevism as beneath them. Don't you think it's disturbing to see doctors in a democratic country having a militant worldview?! As for doctors being associated with the word "socialism", just think of a different part of Europe in the 1930s and put the word "national" in front. Oh, by the way, Che Guevara was a doctor.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,545 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    If you think you can get away with the "Nazis were socialist!" thing on here, I think you've picked the wrong forum.



    On the wrong side of the Atlantic.

    And you've contradicted yourself by pointing out Che Guevaras training while going on about being surprised that a doctor could be left wing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,540 ✭✭✭political analyst


    What I meant to say is that doctors being far-left (as opposed to being social democrat) sounds familiar in Latin America, especially Cuba and Venezuela, but not in Britain and Ireland.

    I think the case of that senior BMA figure cracking that horrific antisemitic joke is an example of the horseshoe theory in action.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 26,404 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    As a political analyst, you'll be well aware that fringe left-wing groups like the SWP support strikers' pickets as a matter of principle, and often turn up to participate. An SWP presence on doctors' picket lines (a) is completely unsurprising, and (b) tells you that the SWP supports the doctors' claims. But it tells you nothing about whether doctors as a class, or any individual doctor, supports the SWP.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,599 ✭✭✭rock22


    @political analyst "doctors being far-left .... sounds familiar in Latin America...... but not in Britain and Ireland."

    What about Noel Browne?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,631 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Well, yes. [This is Irish politics of the early 1950s, so off topic]

    He was run out of office by John Charles McQuaid and elements of FF, FG, and other conservative Catholic Church supporters. The Catholic Church under JCMcQ wanted to keep a firm fist on any activity that the Church controlled and wanted to prevent the state from taking an interest in any such area. Magdalene laundries, mother and baby homes, orphanages, private hospitals, private and state schools, etc. were all examples of this. The state under FF, FG were quite happy to allow him/them to do so.

    Noel Browne only wanted to support the children - and particularly the mother and babies that needed medical attention prenatal, at time of delivery, and post natal. He also wanted to control TB.

    Of course, he could have been driven by his attention to his Hippocratic oath he took as a doctor, and the appalling conditions he witnessed among the poor people he witnessed as a doctor. JCMcQ had other ideas - being a devout Christian Catholic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,621 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Has this thread been moved to CA/IMHO without me noticing ?

    Daily Mail articles about Bolshevik doctors ffs. Conservative fans are really getting desperate.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,951 ✭✭✭Christy42


    I mean is being in a democratic country given a part of Asia has Democratic in its name and is not considered a great place to live?


    I would generally have assumed most doctors are left wing in general. Generally more liberal on abortion, less likely to be anti vax etc. Not always tied to economic left wing but there is a pretty strong correlation in those beliefs. Especially in a country with nationalised medicine.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,474 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Also, one of the 'caring' professions : ostensibly about helping people first and foremost and not necessarily all about making money. One would hazard a guess that right wing people might be more drawn to jobs where they can earn serious money and quickly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,621 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    They are drawn to being doctors just private ones where they can as you say earn serious money.



  • Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭Guildenstern


    Maybe this isn't the right thread, but I've been interested to see if there are any benefits post Brexit. The car battery deal in Somerset is a plus, but realistically I would have thought the UK needs to be bringing home one of these a month?

    Yes, I know many here will say, the UK could have had numerous of this if it stayed in the EU, but thinking beyond all that, that ship has sailed, and it is now 2 years plus since the deal was down with the EU. Brexit supporters were always hopeful of these sort of deals, but realistically, they would not happen immediately.

    Is the Somerset deal the first of this size?



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,404 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Earning a good salary and having a social conscience or political views on the left is not, despite what right-wingers may want to to believe, hypocritical or inconsistent or even terribly unusual. "We should all be starving in our hovels" is not, despite right-wing doctrine, one of the tenets of socialism.



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,404 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus



    There is another thread . . .

    . . . for Brexit-related discussions; you might get a better response over there.

    There doesn't seem to be any immediate reason to think that this particular thing is a "Brexit benefit", does there? There are 35 such plants open, under construction or being planned in the EU, so clearly EU membership or being subject to EU rules is no kind of barrier to projects of this kind. Have we any reason to think that this plant couldn't or wouldn't have gone ahead in Somerset if the UK were still in the EU?



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,327 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    This detailed article shows the France is miles ahead in EV battery manufacture.




  • Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭Guildenstern


    But I just cannot take to anything in The Guardian. Hates everything about the UK and want to see it fail on every opportunity. A paper for urban lefty liberals.

    I would go to The Times for anything like an objective analysis.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,085 ✭✭✭Glaceon


    I'm tired of all of this socialism=communism crap coming from the right in the UK and US. I haven't seen one person suggest that the government seize private property, therefore it's not communism.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,292 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    It's rhetoric that does feel like it's tipping its hat towards the intended audience: 'cos it seems more geared towards scaring older viewers/voters than those young enough for whom "communism" means absolutely nothing - given there isn't a Big Bad USSR on the doorstep anymore. And given it's the older cohort of a population that actually vote ... it arguably works.

    Post edited by pixelburp on


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,687 ✭✭✭serfboard


    The interesting thing is that it's a phrase that's only resurfaced quite recently and I was wondering myself why it was being used. Commu-wha?

    I think that you've got it right.

    It's a sign of desperation to me.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,442 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    There's that and the decimation of prospects that today's young people have faced under Capitalism. Not only has Communism lost its fear factor but what some are calling late stage Capitalism has devastated the planet, made home-ownership all but a fantasy for many and wrecked public services. Basically, if you're not already part of the capital owning classes, you never will be.

    In that context, the hand-wringing about it seems to lend validation to Socialist and Communist talking points.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,621 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    For years now the US have used communism to attack any law that would require the national or state government to provide care or services.

    It has been deployed in the UK any time Labour get a bit too "Harry Perkins".

    It stuck to Corbyn for obvious reasons but the Tories are gonna get nowhere trying to get it to stick to Starmer.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,474 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    80% of newspaper sales in Britain are of right wing newspapers (England in particular is a largely right wing country, certainly among the older population). Whatever their faults, the Guardian are pushing against a toxic media landscape.

    You could argue that the right wing press has a serious love for GB alright, but only in a right wing English nationalist sense - they themselves absolutely despise everyone British outside their bubble (Labour, SNP, minorites, "the woke", immigrants, lefties, luvvies etc).



  • Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭Guildenstern


    You are so off the mark and from your comments I don't very much if you've spent much time in the UK. All media in the UK is toxic but The Guardian has a place all of its own. At least the rest of the media including the Mirror which has always been Left, has the country's best interests at heart.

    Actually the average English person is very similar to their average Irish equivalent and I say that with the confidence of someone who has lived many years in both countries.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,292 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    It's not any media's priority to have "the best interests at heart" of the host country; cos inevitably there lies propaganda, jingoism and a loose interpretation of what entails "the best interests" in the first place. How does one even define something that fuzzy and abstract? Whose best interests: those who can define success, or those at the whim of the former? A lot of malevolence has occured under the guise of "best interests".

    It's the media's responsibility to hold power accountable and shine light on any backsliding that might occur - funnily enough perpetrated too often by those who'd try to claim they had altruistic or nationalistic intent. Wanting a country to fail is an odd thing to claim: how does one "want" a country to fail; it doesn't even make sense.

    The Guardian has its flaws - even someone as avowedly liberal minded like myself finds their editorials nauseating - but their consistent examination and interrogation of the UK's biggest problem areas should be celebrated. Funny how this cliche gets trotted out against the left so often: they don't even like the UK/US/Ireland etc. etc. Love isn't blind, or incapable of constructive criticism; otherwise it's just infatuation. Those who love a country know to call it out on its shít when required.

    Post edited by pixelburp on


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,713 ✭✭✭PommieBast


    I'm no fan of The Grauniad but by British standards they are not that vile.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,474 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    You think the Guardian would be anti a Labour led UK (or a Labour-Lib Dem coalition)? If not, in what way would that make them anti-UK or anti-British?

    It's quite obvious that their issue is with the Tory Brexit regime (you could definitely argue they are anti-monarchy and anti-aristocracy too, but that is something of a separate discussion).



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,442 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    It's impossible to take this with any degree of sincerity, frankly. The red tops championed the economic act of self harm that was Brexit no end and have been odiously agitating against the interests of the people of this country for decades, not to mention avoiding tax to boot.

    Two examples:

    Your argument amounts to the Guardian being the worst with no detail or links whatsoever. It's got its flaws but it's by far the best of the lot.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,295 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    The comparison as per usual with America and Britain is incorrect. Britain has a public health service that is supported by the Tories in principle. The Americans do not believe in this principle. Nor is it believed in Ireland where half the population have private health insurance.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,621 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    I wasn't just talking about health. I wasn't talking about any one policy.

    The fear of communism is used in both the US and the UK when it suits. Much more so in the US though.

    And yes the Tories support the NHS in principal with "principal" being the important word. Because in fact they don't support but undermine it.



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