Leinster Team Talk Thread (Love you Furlong time)

Rigor Mortis · 24-05-2023 10:37am

The Jenkins bashing shows how one game shifts the narrative. Up until last week he was a great signing who Leinster had succeeded in getting the best out of where Munster failed.

Buer · 24-05-2023 10:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634361#Comment_120634361

The landscape of NIQ players now and back then is incredibly different. There has been a steady slide in both the volume and quality of NIQ signings overall. If you go back a decade, each of the three wealthier provinces had a handful of NIQ players which always included some world class talent with test caps for SA, NZ or Australia.

Previously, provinces could have the 5+1 approach. That's long gone. The development structures were put in place to reduce that reliance and, generally speaking, they've been a success. It's far less likely they can sign guys in these positions because they do have guys capable of playing to a high level now.

pickarooney · 24-05-2023 11:02am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634445#Comment_120634445

Up until last week, Leinster were winning games!

He was brought in, we understood, with the express purpose of bulking up our second row and giving us an extra bit of heft against the big teams at the business end of Europe. He was doing fine in the URC, against less physical opposition but when called upon in the final he appeared disinterested and unmotivated.

Clegg · 24-05-2023 11:02am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634445#Comment_120634445

Overall Jenkins has been ok this season. He had been doing well up to his injury, but since returning he hasn't hit the same form. Thought he was very poor against La Rochelle.

It's no harm to want to see where we can improve. McCarthy can ultimately been a better option. Certainly more athletic anyway.

24-05-2023 11:22am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120632984#Comment_120632984

I don't disagree, and on the very final point, I've always articulated a view that if you're going to sign NIQ's then best to go for the very best player available (guys like Elsom, Thorn, De Allende, Pienaar, Snyman etc) but of course it comes with a significant financial cost.

The timing of when Leinster signed Jenkins etc was still during a window coming out of COVID with the financial difficulties etc that that brought to Irish rugby overall. Munster announced the signings of Snyman / De Allende at the end of January 2020; I think it obviously goes without saying that (even with the external funding), those signings wouldn't have likely been possible had they been a few months later.

This is something that might shift in the next year or two as the provinces and IRFU are on a sounder financial footing.

awec · 24-05-2023 11:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634570#Comment_120634570

Athletic is not what Leinster needs. You have a pack full of athletic players, that's part of the problem.

McCarthy is the answer I think, he's a big lad, and Leinster should just bulk him to the max. Screw the athleticism, sheer size and power is what you're after.

Former Former Former · 24-05-2023 11:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634659#Comment_120634659

It isn't a financial thing. Sure aren't we always hearing that Leinster have the biggest playing budget in the world... our last NIQ signing who was remotely in the mix for a starting jersey was Fardy and that long before Covid.

Name one top-level NIQ we could sign who won't be displacing a current Ireland squad member.

That's why we have guys like Jenkins and Ngatai.

The only thing that will change it is we see a few gaps appearing where we don't have an Irish international and we need an NIQ. Until then, this is it.

Munster can sign guys like Snyman/de Allende and Ulster can sign Coetzee/Vermeulen/Kitshoff because it doesn't hurt the national team, not because they have more money.

arsebiscuits1 · 24-05-2023 12:36pm

A theory I have on size and power.

Players are only as big and powerful as they are because the current rules allow them to be just that.

Porter made an interesting comment the other week about how he was 130kg when Stu came in and shed to 116kg to be able to cope under his sessions.

In the modern game players are allowed to go down with cramp or niggles and spend 2-3 minutes getting strapped. Skelton getting looked at by the physios and then subsequently getting his other knee strapped comes to mind.... Dillane in the semi against Exeter getting his boot taped back on is another example.

Allowing micro breaks for treatment allows bigger heavier players play for longer.

The governing bodies are trying to speed up the game and make a more fast flowing spectacle with less breaks. We've seen this with banning huddles and having mandated water breaks (even if that one made no sense)

I would be in favour of if treatment takes longer than 30 seconds, the player is removed from the pitch until the next meaningful break in play. If it's a front row, a free kick with no scrum option is awarded to the other team. Or uncontested scrum to oppo

Take out these micro injury breaks that give teams a good solid 7-8 minutes per game to get air back into their lungs and all of a sudden you have to adapt.

Teams stop playing silly buggers and waste good expensive physio tape and have to start shedding some kgs to be able to last a game that is played at a pace that world rugby (and more importantly the fans) want it actually played at

awec · 24-05-2023 12:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120630072#Comment_120630072

Late to the party on this one, but I think the "it didn't drop our way" or the "we only lost by 1 point" (that I've seen elsewhere) is somewhat ignoring the context of the game, and also ignoring the issues Leinster have had in the really big matches since 2018.

Leinster lost by 1 point, but Leinster were 17 points ahead after less than 15 minutes, and Leinster were at home. The swing in this game after about 30 minutes was insane. Losing this game was not bad luck, or small margins, or unlucky bounces or whatever, IMO Leinster lost this game because when La Rochelle turned up the heat Leinster crumbled, mentally and physically.

The same thing happened at the end of the game last year, La Rochelle hit the pressure button and Leinster couldn't get the ball back. The difference this year was it started much earlier in the game. Last year Sexton made a big error, this year you'd need a pen and paper to keep track of the big errors.

There is a pattern emerging here, and unfortunately for Leinster I think the departure of Sexton is going to cause big problems. I'm not talking about his quality as a player (cause that's obviously a big loss), but more his mentality and the drive he brings to the squad. I don't see that anywhere else in Leinster. Ringrose is a great player, but I am unconvinced he's much of a leader of men when the **** really hits the fan.

durthacht · 24-05-2023 12:43pm

Interesting podcast by Murray Kinsella this week on the never ending whining about referees that comes from coaches and fans. He is right as the level of moaning is extraordinarily tedious.

Dubinusa · 24-05-2023 12:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634445#Comment_120634445

Certainly he looked good in the league. He was poor this week. A no show. He looked to me like he didn't belong at that level.

He was signed for these matches!

Dubinusa · 24-05-2023 1:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634934#Comment_120634934

That is concerning to speculate on. Really, Leinster had experienced lads out on the field and not one looked like leading the team after the going got tough.

Sexton is a different breed, like POM. His leadership will be missed. Not to mention his brilliance.

You can't win if you can't get out of your own zone. You can't win if you can't adapt. You can't win if you use the bench incorrectly.

There's a lot of reasons why this match was lost. It's tough to think what Leo was thinking! Why sub Conan? Why not go to Luke early in the 2nd half? We lost because on the day we weren't good enough.

Clegg · 24-05-2023 1:07pm

Leinster hardly crumbled. They put on one of the great defensive performances to stop La Rochelle running riot.

I don't go in for the moral victory bolloxology. They still lost and that's all that matters. But I don't consider them to have crumbled.

Dubinusa · 24-05-2023 1:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634950#Comment_120634950

Depending on the ref is not a good tactic. Adjust to the match and the ref. Whining about it is dense. These players have been reffed by Peyper before. It's nothing new.

What they need to do is take a good look at themselves and ask the questions as to why they couldn't clear the lines? Why couldn't they match the physicality of LaR? Fans will always whinge. Leinster could lose by 50 and some will see the ref as the culprit.

Back to the drawing board and evaluate the reasons why Leinster spent the end of the 1st half and 30 minutes of the 2nd half in their own half? That's where the focus should be.

pickarooney · 24-05-2023 1:13pm

The attack crumbled, the backs crumbled, the gameplan crumbled. The defence held fast until the inevitable occurred because it was the only thing that was working in any way.

24-05-2023 1:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634719#Comment_120634719

No, I get it and would generally agree, but I think the specific timing of when they were signing Jenkins or in the market for a second row, even had an Etzebeth / Mostert been available, I don't think they could have gotten that signed off at that time because of the financial constraints.

Dubinusa · 24-05-2023 1:30pm

I reckon Leinster will give it a lash again next season. J.N may bring something different in to improve the side. But there are some things that need to be looked at.

On J.N, I have no idea if he will improve Leinster. His signing was surprising for me, I thought we'd have got someone like Payne or McNamara. But it's exciting to see what this man can bring to the set up.

The era post Sexton is beginning and strangely I think Leinster will still be a fantastic side.

arsebiscuits1 · 24-05-2023 1:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634950#Comment_120634950

It's extraordinarily tedious but as long as rugby is subject to such a subjective rule set in nearly every aspect of the game it's unavoidable sadly.

24-05-2023 1:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634934#Comment_120634934

I don't think "crumbled" really describes the second half though, and while they applied pressure, they equally didn't create a whole lot for that pressure.

To me, the difference was the poor execution by the Leinster half backs (and the wider kicking game), which didn't give any kind of respite to our pack or allow Leinster to dictate the play at all. That wasn't down to LAR's physical dominance - it's just pure bad execution. On another day, Leinster execute those kicks properly and all of a sudden the screw is turned and Leinster have the opportunity to be the ones applying the pressure and stretching the LAR defence.

All day long when Leinster had the ball it appeared as though we could cause them difficulties in defence and find gaps in the wide channels.

I've spoken about it before also, but feel if any of the three turnovers (Sheehan, Henshaw, Ngatai) were rightly blown as penalties instead of just being awarded the turnover, they likewise would have had the opportunity to exit and get possession and territory too.

I do 100% agree with you though on the concerns about Sexton's influence on the culture at Leinster. He spoke about this when he came back from Racing, that he felt training had gotten sloppier, standards were lower etc. In his absence, it isn't obvious to me who drives those standards now in training.

Lost Ormond · 24-05-2023 1:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635134#Comment_120635134

What do you mean by you reckon Leinster will give it a lash? in what world wouldnt they?

Nienaber will def help Leinster. Huge advantage to get a guy with experience of SA rugby. McNamara only gone from Leinster a short period and not sure he would come back to Leinster so soon.

Of course Leinster will still be a strong side. Theyve so many internationals, very good prospects. even without sexton they'll be at top end of both competitons for considerable future.

pickarooney · 24-05-2023 1:47pm

The Leinster back 5 made no passes the entire game. Has that ever happened before? Running and kicking every time we had the ball - how was that ever going to open up the defence?

AdamD · 24-05-2023 2:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635046#Comment_120635046

They didn't crumble, but for all of the courage in defense, they showed absolutely none in attack. Nobody wanted the ball, we threw no passes and our kicking was atrocious. That was the losing of the game.

ionadnapokot · 24-05-2023 3:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635187#Comment_120635187

It is a brutal stat. I remember when Ireland beat SA in '14 (Henshaw debut at 12) - Less than 5 passes the entire game from 'back 5'.

What change/evolution could Nienaber bring? His SA rugby seems kick heavy and direct.

Are Leinster going to go back to Henshaw crashing the ball up?

Interesting interview. minor playing career, s&c to coaching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baFnglsexYw

AbusesToilets · 24-05-2023 3:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120634950#Comment_120634950

Maybe there would be less moaning if WR mandated that refs actually apply the laws instead of "letting the game flow". The breakdown these days is a lawless mess and will be exhibit A when the CTE lawsuits start flowing.

Lost Ormond · 24-05-2023 3:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635718#Comment_120635718

You cant have refs applying every law in the law book strictly as its written. the game would be impossible to play and doing that would frustrate everyone.

Clegg · 24-05-2023 3:55pm

Congratulations to Dan Sheehan.

Truly world class player.

https://twitter.com/leinsterrugby/status/1661311085029257216?t=6OS2Q_ZjcRNS-NUBVYuqyA&s=09

leakyboots · 24-05-2023 4:02pm

Phenomenal player, still can get better too. Hope he stays clear of injury.

AbusesToilets · 24-05-2023 4:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635733#Comment_120635733

Bollox to that. If you can't play the game applying the laws then they should get rid of them. Asking that simple things like offsides, staying on your feet in a ruck, shoulders above hips, throwing a ball in straight be enforced isn't asking too much

Lost Ormond · 24-05-2023 4:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635914#Comment_120635914

You cant just penalise everything all the time as its written. offsides arent always material so you dont penalize it. staying on your feet wont always be material either.

Dubinusa · 24-05-2023 5:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635160#Comment_120635160

Of course I mean they'll be primed fromm the off. A lot of frustration among this group. They'll be fired up and hopefully better.

Leinster Team Talk Thread (Love you Furlong time)

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