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What should be done with projected €65 billion budget surplus?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 738 ✭✭✭tjhook


    Interesting suggestion in an Indo piece today. To refund the people whose pension funds were raided by the state following the banking collapse. There isn't a hope that will happen, but it would help restore confidence in pensions. I would think hard before diverting more of my income to a pension, especially with the likely make-up of future governments...



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,233 ✭✭✭crusd


    You end up not having resolved structural problems in the economy and trying to borrow at more adverse conditions. Improve the overall productive capacity of the economy to protect against lean times.

    If you have a hole in the roof and you win 20 grand, do you use it the repair the roof or pay down your mortgage?

    And government debt doesnt have to be paid off in full as long as in the long term you have economic growth.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,238 ✭✭✭paul71


    Completely correct crusd. Inflation means we save money by NOT repaying debt ahead of schedule.



  • Registered Users Posts: 500 ✭✭✭Marcos


    Seriously, as has been said before Infrastructure. But I'd get a load of forensic accountants to oversee any projects and to make sure that there's no corruption, or needless waste. Just to make it as difficult as possible for corrupt behaviour to waste this money. No more Children's Hospital fiascos.

    Prisons - as the population grows it's an unfortunate fact that we need more prisons. I'm not a hang em and flog em person, or cheerleading for private prisons - no one here wants that ****. But at present the system is dysfunctional. Court reports of offenders with 60, 70 + previous convictions getting off with suspended sentences is an example of this. Also the fact that there is no real deterrent to criminal behaviour for teenagers is bad for everyone. The diversion programme sounds good on paper but is it working?

    Drug treatment programmes - Again not something that will grab headlines, but if it helps people and keeps them out of prison well and good.

    More hospitals and primary care centres - if not acute hospitals then one near Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway for dealing with non emergency cases. I don't know how to keep them out of the clutches of the HSE mismanagement. Primary Care Centres based in the community to help take pressure off A & E departments. Also look seriously at staffing recruitment and retention. If that means increased pay or conditions.

    Housing is a huge thing. 1/3rd of our population considering leaving due to housing is a totally dysfunctional situation. 75% of under 25's considering the same is a real smack in the face for the government, or would be if they had any shame. What good does this do for Irish society?

    Dedicated, affordable housing for first responders, healthcare, emergency and defence forces personnel.

    Public transport - underground for Dublin. Luas for Cork and Galway. National rail network upgrades.

    Power generation - take Eamon Ryan away from this. It is too important to let that muppet in charge of it. Fine spend money on wind power, but also license gas exploration as a failsafe. Either that or build a nuclear plant, but that won't be popular with the Greens.

    Pay our soldiers and sailors a living wage. We need to upgrade the navy so we can adequately patrol our waters and way of protecting the undersea cables. Also primary radar so we can at least tell who is flying through our airspace.

    If there was anything else left over then spend it on proper grant system to allow retrofit for housing to bring it up to Scandinavian standards.

    Have I missed anything?

    When most of us say "social justice" we mean equality under the law opposition to prejudice, discrimination and equal opportunities for all. When Social Justice Activists say "social justice" they mean an emphasis on group identity over the rights of the individual, a rejection of social liberalism, and the assumption that unequal outcomes are always evidence of structural inequalities.

    Andrew Doyle, The New Puritans.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,363 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    According to Joe O Brien the minister for integration we brought 150 international protection buildings to use this year and plan to triple that next year.


    So you can bet a large chunk will be spent housing asylum seekers and international protection applicants.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,026 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    This is a very fair suggestion.

    But, and it's a big but, if you concede that principle, where does it stop?

    People who paid USC (every earner), people who lost out on PRSI dental and optical benefit when it was slashed, people who paid increased inheritance and CGT and DIRT etc.

    It would be opening a Pandora's box and it's not going to happen.



  • Registered Users Posts: 738 ✭✭✭tjhook


    I agree, it won't happen.

    But I do think there's a big difference between applying a tax/levy that will apply to future economic activity from that point on, and appropriating assets that have already come through the tax system. And remember, not all employee pension contributions are tax-free.

    I think appropriating assets is a dangerous precedent to set. It means a pension fund is really a stack of your cash that you can't access for decades, but the government can whenever it wants or needs to.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,026 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    True, but at the same time, some bonds are maturing and will have to be either refinanced or paid down.

    Refinancing at the higher borrowing rates there are now would be stone mental, so paying down certain debt categories, with some of the surplus, is a prudent step.

    Just like in 2008, we cannot rely on the economy expanding at current rates indefinitely and we could encounter ballooning net debt costs if anything were to go very wrong globally. We need to get our fundamental Debt:GDP ratios lower and not save up a time bomb for the future like happened to us before.

    To illustrate; Ireland's Debt:GDP is 45%. But Ireland's Debt:GNI* is 90%. And we know GNI* is the much more reliable gauge of nominal domestic activity in the case of this State.

    So, we need that figure down below 60% to be sustainable and low risk long term.

    And we can do that quite handily by 2030 with prudence.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,066 ✭✭✭HerrKuehn


    Dipping into pensions was quite different to reducing services or increasing tax. It would be like taking part of your savings in a bank account rather than just increasing DIRT on the interest.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,238 ✭✭✭paul71


    Hence I said "ahead of schedule". Refinancing maturing loans would be madness, in fact it would make more sense to do the opposite and enter the bond market and lend rather than borrow as a hedge against inflation, but in truth I think a better use would be properly thought out capital projects. Renewable energy, social housing and yes I will raise the elephant in the room, a Nuclear power plant.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,664 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    fix this issues with the planning system then, build houses and if we have 30 odd billion, dont be blaming lack of funds. If thats not possible, then we know its the people managing the system thats to blame and not the finance



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,193 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Buy land from farmers and plant native trees on a large scale.

    Galway bypass

    Build houses and apartments

    Upgrade our sewage systems

    Pay down our massive debt

    Waste, Corruption and Cronyism (a given)

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,814 ✭✭✭phill106


    Tram system for the major cities, linking them to airports. Get this crazy thing called mass transit...



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,000 ✭✭✭downtheroad


    A previous suggestion of a reduction in VAT is a good suggestion. Maybe bring the standard rate of VAT down to 20% from 23% (which is one of the higher standard VAT rates in the EU).

    This would put money in people's pockets immediately (however this could be a double edged sword in terms of inflation).



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,786 ✭✭✭DownByTheGarden


    You gather the PPS numbers of every adult in the country who pays tax and have a lottery with their names

    Draw the first 650000 out and give them each €100,000



  • Registered Users Posts: 449 ✭✭L.Ball


    Build a Nuclear Power station

    Match Doctors & Nurses pay with Australia and UAE

    Increase Gardai Salary and invest in training and equipment

    At least 10 new ambulances

    3 New Hospitals Cork Waterford and Galway

    at least 2 new prisons, increase in prison officer pay

    Increase Naval and Air Corps by ships & planes and personnel (we have one of the largest maritime territories in relation to our landmass).


    The reality is though it will mostly be squandered on social welfare and token projects and quangos, along with more bloated urban sprawl. any other functional country could do the above and more with that money.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,677 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    This hahaha republic would never do what i'm suggesting...

    ...set up rainy day fund ( I believe they are doing this)

    🤨



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,278 ✭✭✭MightyMunster


    We need more than houses, all those houses need power, water, sewage, roads, buses, trains, broadband etc....

    I agree though the state should build houses and if in future if they had too many they can just increase the criteria slightly e.g. could offer cost rentals to students, OAPs or whoever



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,101 ✭✭✭Mr. teddywinkles


    Get rid of usc like they promised 10 year ago



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,238 ✭✭✭paul71


    Just did a quick calculation. 65 billion would not be enough. By a long way.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,238 ✭✭✭paul71


    Actually I was wrong, it might be enough. 140,000 sports horses and about 60,000 thoroughbreds. €65 billion / 200k = €325,000 so easily enough.


    The problem would be all the daft buggers thinking the thoroughbred stallions are cute and fluffy, walking up to them and being kicked to death.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,386 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Infrastructure infrastructure infrastructure.

    Build a metro from Rathfarnham to Clondalkin as I’m sick of being stuck in traffic and there’s loads o money.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭Jack Daw


    It should be used to fix the housing crisis once and for all.


    This sum of money could be used to build massive excess of houses so there is never inflated property prices or rental prices again.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭Jack Daw


    Ever since there was word of this budget surplus it was very noticeable how often there seemed to be regular articles and opinions in the papers advocating Ireland joining NATO.


    Seems like we're being softened up by the government for this surplus to be used for that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,373 ✭✭✭✭ednwireland


    it will be wasted , pumped into the charity/public sector. there are 500 approved housing bodies in Ireland, 27 in Dublin. basically as a country we are great at wasting money 65 billion should be no trouble



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,101 ✭✭✭Mr. teddywinkles


    So true. These numpitie politicians will look after their pals and connections.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,454 ✭✭✭FGR


    I was always a fan of saving for a 'rainy day'. History tells us however that any reserves, such as the Pension Reserve Fund, will be raided at the behest of the IMF or whoever is there should our economy tank.

    So that leads me to think that infrastructure is the best thing. So of course law and order, health, education, transport etc.

    I'm a proponent of tax cuts, but I'd rather a restructuring of the system where people even pay €1 PAYE per week. Having people outside the net makes no sense imo. Not a fan of universal free access to anything as it tends to be taken advantage of by those who do not need it.

    Something that would pay us back in spades - put a lot of money towards our educational institutions to create 5x more spaces to train doctors, nurses, vets and all other professions that at the moment require outlandish Leaving Cert points due to the lack of spaces. 600 points for any college course is ridiculous for any profession.

    It may sound cruel but I've seen time and again that people really do take advantage of anything that's 'free'. So instead of free transport, subsidise the life out of it and incentivise public transport by providing better security, hygiene and timetables throughout the country. Same for healthcare, education, etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,101 ✭✭✭Mr. teddywinkles


    Spend it on makeup for our political betters.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,619 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    The housing crisis isn't a money problem, they're already throwing more than the system can take at it which is why any opposition plan is just about who gets the accommodation rather than building them.

    What would help is planning reform and infrastructure that allowed a more coherent housing strategy.

    But that takes the best part of a decade to do (i.e. Greater than the lifetime of a government), so it'll be spent on giveaways instead.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,677 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Why do the government insist on increasing social welfare rates at a time of full employment? It doesn't make sense to incentivise those still on it to stay on it when we don't have enough workers.

    FG in particular have nothing to gain from the welfare vote and neither do FF or the Greens.

    Yet instead of rewarding workers who would in turn reward them they keep throwing money at the most protected demographic in the state year after year.



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