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DART+ (DART Expansion)

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    #8882
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,320 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120636528#Comment_120636528

    Just on the difference between non-statutory and statutory consultations, while non-statutory seem like a waste of time, they completely remove one of the legal avenues of appeal. The EU, and Ireland, signed up to the Aarhus convention, which requires the public to have their say on projects early in the process. This has already resulted in projects losing in court, with the entire project going back to the start of the design process, rather than just back to the planning authority.

    These non-statutory consultations completely remove that as a possibility. They can also result in better projects, as the first BusConnects proposal in Dublin was sub-optimal, to say the least. The final design, while not perfect, is better than the original proposal.



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    #8883
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,320 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Someone on SkyScraperCity put this video up:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCK8teu2ry8


    Irish Rail did a presentation on the Dart+ plans, and beyond, which was quite good. Nothing majorly new on it, but one thing that stuck out was that they were a little surprised that they were out on their own ordering bi-mode trains (BEMU & EMU) for Dart+, and that they're going with tri-mode trains for the enterprise service. Diesel, 1500v and 25Kv.

    There's a map with future plans for electrification, showing that Belfast, Cork, Waterford, and Galway are going to get 25Kv lines to them, with basically everywhere else getting "Battery Electric or Alternate Fuels", with Hydrogen being mentioned.

    The other thing that he mentions is the climate action plan, and explicitly states that the government can be sued if it's not delivered. I've been saying this for ages, so it's really nice to see someone from one of the government agencies saying. Ultimately, that's why I'm so confident that all of these projects will get the go ahead.

    Also of note is IR plans for 2050, with some good info on where they're heading. I've extracted it here:

    Screenshot 2023-05-28 at 20.58.59.png




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    #8884
    prunudo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,322 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Shame not to see any ambition to even look into double tracking south of Bray beyond 2040/50

    Post edited by prunudo on


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    #8885
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,320 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120651937#Comment_120651937

    I'd assume that it's because of the major headache that is the Bray Head. Without the ability to double track there, there's no real point to the rest of the line sadly.

    Ironically for those south of the problem, the worst case scenario is that IR's coastal protection is a success, meaning that the current status quo can continue indefinitely. If it fails, and the line is threatened by erosion, then they'll have to move it inland somehow.



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    #8886
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,404 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Quad tracking all the way to Cork?



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    #8887
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120652427#Comment_120652427

    To Portarlington.



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    #8888
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,404 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Was wondering why it says quad tracking of Cork line. Quad yo Portarlington is ambitious.

    I'm taking it all with a pinch of salt but let's say is all true. We'll then in 2050 have a quad track from Portarlington to Heuston and Drogheda to Connolly (somehow), connected to eachother with a twin track DART tunnel through the city centre which is to accommodate DART and frequent Cork to Belfast trains 😵 building in a capacity issue. Unless DART tunnel will be 4 track from day 1 which seems very ambitious indeed and implausibly forward thinking for Ireland.



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    #8889
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,889 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    getting back to Dart+ - confirmation in that presentation that they plan to close all the level crossings on the southside:

    image.png




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    #8890
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,366 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120652155#Comment_120652155

    Has there ever been any studies done on what it would take to twin/triple/quad the existing bray line?

    A TBM through bray head?

    Is there an alternative route around bray head that CIE might have reserved for expansion as a just in case 😜 or are we talking about undergrounding for an extensive distance?



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    #8891
    prunudo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,322 ✭✭✭prunudo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120653513#Comment_120653513

    Personal, I think that given the constraints of the line between Bray and the city centre, they're happy to leave it as is and even possibly wish that the sea would wash it away. Would save them a lot on maintenance and remedial works.



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    #8892
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,366 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120653613#Comment_120653613

    Yeah but that options not available thankfully!!

    When the cherrywood development gets into full swing I imagine there will be a huge extra demand on shankhill P+R as it’s only 8mins drive away plus obviously the dart service.

    From google maps there looks to be space to add more tracks from shankhill up to about sandycove station, then it looks very constrained unfortunately.

    There does look to be room to upgrade shankhill p+r though.



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    #8893
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,889 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120653513#Comment_120653513

    it's just a tunnel, no stations, no CPO - tunnelling cost figures are easily available. It would be long by Irish standards (~3.5km), but not by European standards. Going inland around Bray Head would be complicated, there's no reserved path, a lot of housing in Bray and Greystones, you'd need new stations as the existing ones are right on the coast and you'd probably still need a some tunnelling or big cuttings as the terrain is hilly.

    As per the slide, the plan is to increase frequency on that section to 3TPH in each direction by doubling the track on the Greystones side and better signalling, I don't think anyone has thought beyond that.



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    #8894
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,666 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I suspect part of the issue, is that Greystones at 27km from the City, is already at the outer limits of reasonable commuting distance from Dublin City. I know people travel even further, but it wouldn't be considered international best practice and I don't think city planners would want to particularly encourage much development further south of Greystones, at least not for the time being.

    There is far more unlocked potential closer to the city, west of the City that Dart+ will unlock and to the north of the city that Metrolink will unlock. A lot of undeveloped land in these parts much less then 27km from the city and without the cost of a new tunnel under Bray head. In general the Dublin and Wicklow mountains really limit further development in that direction.

    I'm not saying it will never happen, but there are higher priority, lower hanging fruit to develop over the next few decades before they get to that point. Works to increase the capacity of the eixsting tunnel seem like a reasonable starting point.



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    #8895
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,889 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    yeah, it's not exorbitantly expensive, but it is expensive relative to other projects serving more people.

    I'd be more than happy with 3 trains an hour but they also need to improve reliability, as at the moment any problem anywhere on the Dart line results in Greystones trains being cancelled/curtailed to get the schedule back.



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    #8896
    AngryLips
    Registered Users Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120654425#Comment_120654425

    Greystones is substantially closer to Dublin city centre than Drogheda, yet nobody is arguing that Dart shouldn't be extended that far out.



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    #8897
    dublinman1990
    Registered Users Posts: 8,417 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120651802#Comment_120651802

    Yep. I do get what you are saying in one way. However the problem with trying to deliver these projects, from Paul Hendrick's pov, is that not every member of the public is in agreement with IÉ over the implementation of these projects anyway.

    You know who I am talking about here. It's the NIMBY crowd who live along these major pieces of heavy rail infrastructure who don't want to see any ounce of it changed at all.

    As we have observed from the level of furore over the decommissioning of level crossings stretching down from Lansdowne Road to Merrion Gates a few years ago. The point that I was making here was that the people who live along these major railway lines on Dublin's rail network are not really happy to see these projects being implemented in any shape or form.

    They just want to be happy with bringing on JR's or injunctions against the government and all of the agencies involved to court when said agencies are actually trying to deliver these projects for the public.

    The point is actually the complete opposite of Hendrick was trying to portray when he was giving out his project presentation to the engineers in the UK.

    The exact same argument is applied when he briefly mentioned the issue of housing near the end of it.

    The nimby's obviously try to bring out their power to make frequent attempts from within their community to not get these projects built at all which makes our situation with housing and rail infrastructure worse.

    Obviously I am not happy when I'm trying to make these points in my post. I am just trying to guage my brain here a bit into how members of the public can sue the government when these projects are not delivered.

    Even if you had tried to collate all of the feedback data from all of the public consultations on every part of the DART+ project so far.

    How many of those responses would resonate with the nimby's along with the members of the public who want to see these projects delivered. Would there be a big margin with those in agreement with these projects or not?



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    #8898
    GerardKeating
    Registered Users Posts: 7,629 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120655603#Comment_120655603

    But Drogheda has twice the population.



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    #8899
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,666 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Frankly Drogheda is a good example of people commuting too far, at least two hours a day commuting, just on the train, add more time getting too and from the stations! Up to 3 hours a day commuting, mad!

    I know people make this trip every day and I know Dart will be extended to it, but we shouldn't be encoraging people to commute that far every day. It isn't good for peoples health.

    Drogheda will get DART because historically people have made this commute and it is probably too late to put that genie back in the bottle, but we certainly don't want to create more towns like this South of Greystones. Not when there is so much undeveloped land closer to the East and North of the city.

    As an aside, I saw yesterday that folks in Drogheda want it to become a city, with a City Council, so they can develop more in Drogheda itself, so it isn't just a commuter town of Dublin.



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    #8900
    crushproof
    Registered Users Posts: 2,791 ✭✭✭crushproof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120657855#Comment_120657855

    The problem is due to the lack of joint up thinking and different councils, north Wicklow is currently on a building spree. Sure look at the size of Greystones now with new estates being built over 3km from the DART station and further along the line in other towns along the route. Creating a car dependent suburbia with the N/M11 choked as well due to lack of nearby employment.

    At least Drogheda is relitavely big enough already with a decent employment and education base. Added nobus of plenty of land next to the station itself for high density development.



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    #8901
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,404 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120652996#Comment_120652996

    Well I'd take that with a pinch of salt. It's yet to be seen if we can even have a cycle lane in Sandymount.



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    #8902
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,645 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659333#Comment_120659333

    Or close Merrion Gates.

    The plan was banjaxed by NIMBY objections to losing their parking and part of their gardens. It was proposed as part of a cycle way initiative - but it could still go ahead as a stand alone.

    Serpentine Avenue one could be closed by raising the railway by about 2.5 metres and dropping the road by the same. Sandymount St to Serpentine Ave is about 350 M and a rise of 3 M would give an incline of 1 in 120, hardly noticeable..



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    #8903
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users Posts: 5,886 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120651802#Comment_120651802

    So apart from Dart Underground (which will be the single most expensive thing on that entire list) we will then basically have made it from when we left the UK to now, and all the way out to 2050 without building ANY new railway in this country. Metro North and the Luas lines are all kind of trams so I'm not counting them (and a good chunk of Luas Green is on the Harcourt line anyway)


    Note also that the slam dunk of Navan railway isn't included in this at all.



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    #8904
    A1ACo
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭A1ACo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120605566#Comment_120605566

    The recent DART+ North Consultation brochure no. 2 says (pp.25):

    'Electrical Substations

    The OHLE system will be supplied with electrical power from the ESB distribution network at regular intervals, at locations known as substations. These substations will receive power from the local power distribution network at 38kV AC. Where the availability of 38kV is constrained, ESB will provide a local transformer substation to enable the delivery of the necessary voltage. The footprint of the substation compound will generally be 50m (length) x 20m (wide). The substation building dimensions will generally be 35m (length) x 10m (width) and 6m (height).'...

    The documents also lists there to be 8 x substations planned for DART+ North line, essentially one for each station, then a couple additional ones.

    Here also, is a link from 2020 article about 'reversible substations' with inverters, to aid capture of regenerative braking power on Spain's 3kv DC network (states capture of regen braking power much easier on 25kv AC network). The Netherland's 'Prorail' organisation had mentioned in a study, the question of braking regen' capture on 1.5kv DC, compared to greater potential for such on 3kv DC.

    https://thebrakereport.com/adif-av-awarded-grant-for-regen-braking-project/



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    #8905
    AngryLips
    Registered Users Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120658461#Comment_120658461

    And yet there's not even a dart station going into the north side of the Drogheda as part of this plan. We keep bigging this up as a big project but it's actually anemic in many respects.

    Post edited by AngryLips on


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    #8906
    ArcadiaJunction
    Registered Users Posts: 125 ✭✭ArcadiaJunction


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120660065#Comment_120660065

    I agree, no station at Cabra also. The entire presentation is spectacularly depressing when you really think about it.



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    #8907
    GerardKeating
    Registered Users Posts: 7,629 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120488379#Comment_120488379

    You could quad or tripple track for most/all of the route between Clontarf Road and Raheny.



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    #8908
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,666 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120668979#Comment_120668979

    The question would be, would that actually be beneficial now, given the planned services, or would then need to quad track all the way to Connolly to actually get the benefit?

    If it is the latter, then just reserving the land for future quad tracking would be enough. No point in increasing the costs and risk to the project unless it would actually deliver an immediate benefit.



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    #8909
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,690 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669295#Comment_120669295

    Yes of course four tracking between Clontarf Road and Raheny is beneficial, as it would allow the Enterprise or an outer suburban train travel at full line speed out of Connolly, overtaking a DART before Raheny and then another potentially at Clongriffin.

    There are additional tracks to Ossory Road which would allow such services to get ahead of a DART at Connolly.

    As it is they will have to chug along all the way to Clongriffin behind a DART (assuming no trains going to Howth).

    I suspect that any funding for the additional tracks there and further north is going to have to come from the Enterprise or freight funding pots, but it’s clear from recent presentations posted that IÉ management do realise the need for more capacity enhancements.



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    #8910
    ArcadiaJunction
    Registered Users Posts: 125 ✭✭ArcadiaJunction


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669295#Comment_120669295

    The OHLE could be widened to future four-track now. But this being Ireland...



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    #8911
    AngryLips
    Registered Users Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669295#Comment_120669295

    There's an argument to be made that Docklands station should be the new terminating station and Connolly just a through station.



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