Boards DCM22 Graduates Thread - A Deeper Understanding

Hi Arknine,

Well done on your first marathon! It’s a shame it turned into such a slog. I’ve a couple of questions.

1. What was your hydration like for the week leading up to the marathon?
2. You mention food the day before? What about the few days before?
3. Maybe your taper was not enough? You more or less raced a half marathon 2-3 weeks before? The 1:34?
4. The 1:34 marathon would indicate a 3:15 full marathon based on the Tinman calculator and probably say to add on 10-20 mins to that for your first marathon which would be 4:48 pace say … you possibly went out too fast and burnt yourself out and with the warm weather too it just killed you?

They would be my initial thoughts. Somebody may spot something else?

You don’t have to just take gels … there are lots of options to increase carbs. You can mix and match. You can also use carb drinks along with gels. Tailwind is great. It’s a carb and electrolyte powder and you sip it every mile to keep yourself topped up. Obviously carrying a liquid can be a pain but a number of us bought soft squishy bottles from Decathlon last year, put the tailwind powder in and added water en route. Decathlon had these handy belts to carry them. I found I could hack Maurten gels every half hour. Some of the others are too sickly. Trial and error. Lots of people think it’s great not to fuel during long training runs. I’d be of the opinion it’s better to to fuel all of them practising different types of fuel. You also have the benefit then that you recover faster after a long run and shouldn’t be exhausted for the rest of the day … and no bother getting back to training either straight away.

arknine, forgive my arguments from ignorance, I'm new to this sport myself but IMO critical pieces of information are

1. You slow down during long runs despite fuelling with gels.

2. Your average run pace is very fast.

This suggests you have been mostly running on glycogen and glucose, and have underdeveloped aerobic base despite high volume. This makes performance over long distances fragile because if you mess up the fuelling e.g. due to dehydration and therefore inadequate carb absorption your fallback (fat burning) place is cripplingly low.

Solution is plenty of genuine fasted Z2 and only speed up (if you must) after the first hour, i.e. progression runs, because as soon as you speed up you'll switch to glycogen and probably won't go back for the rest of the run.

Your ability to absorb high volume pacy running is very impressive but maybe leave the speed for fast sessions.

Happy to be swiftly corrected by those with more running experience.

On the other hand maybe you have a godlike digestion, are destined for Ironman greatness and just need to sort out your hydration 😀

Z2 is essential- but to achieve optimal training efficiency you should be incorporating a comprehensive regimen that encompasses a variety of running techniques. To enhance endurance, prioritize engaging in Z2 runs while also integrating LT (lactate threshold), VO2 max, and steady runs into your routine. For VO2 max workouts, consider performing 10 sets of 400-meter intervals, which will significantly elevate your cardiovascular capacity. Additionally, focus on completing 3 to 4 intervals ranging from 1 to 1.6 kilometers at LT pace to further develop your ability to sustain a high-intensity effort. Incorporating hill sprints throughout the week will amplify the benefits derived from Z2 training, leading to significant performance improvements.

Get up early in the morning and go for a slow easy run before you eat anything.

It was pretty testing all right, I don't think I've ever done a 10k in that sort of weather never mind a marathon. There wasn't a cloud in the sky or any sort of wind

Personally it was a little disappointing, I'd hoped for 3:45-4hrs. It was all going pretty well for me up to 31k when I felt cramp in my right calf. I had to stop and stretch it out a bit, got going again for another few km but the both calves locked, I never recovered so spent the rest of the race walking/ running between bouts of cramp. Came home in 4:02, was pretty gutted. The 4hr pacer passed me at the 25 mile marker, I managed to catch back up to them but then the calves locked up so that was that.

Overall I thought it was a really good race, a nice route and a lot great support. The finish the whole way up Patrick St was really good.

A group of us travelled down for the weekend so the post race beers in the sun were lovely. Had a great weekend overall.

As an aside I'd appreciate any advice on avoiding cramp, that's 2 marathons now and both times cramping in the calves ruined it. This time I was drinking 5-6 pints of water each day for the week before, also took electrolytes each day and had 3 salt tablets during the race as well as plenty of fluids and a gel every 7km so I honestly don't know what else I could have done. Also had been doing plenty of stretching, even had a sports massage a week ago. Not sure I could handle putting all the effort in for another training block for it to be ruined in this way again.

Some good points @Lazare, in hindsight maybe I could have adjusted my goal a little but as you say easier said than done. I'm not totally disappointed, it was still a 17 minute improvement on my Dublin time

Congrats A 17 min pb in those conditions is fantastic. I headed out for an easy jog at 8 am and I felt the heat at that stage - couldn’t imagine running a 10k not a mind a marathon on Sun.

Forgive me father it has been 5 weeks since my last confession 😂

I think the last time I updated I said I was feeling good, had built back up and was taking a down week, which were all true. However, come week 2 after the build up to 65k per week I was feeling a bit tired. there has been loads on at home since a confirmation at the end of April and all the school activities, a kids birthday party, work being a bit nuts and all that goes with life. I actually really didn't feel like ramping right back up again and building. So I kept it at what I felt like doing, conscious that I was going into only my second marathon block, maybe I should take it easy on myself and go with the build up again.

So I did, I kept ticking along but didn't put myself under too much pressure and ran what I wanted to, when I wanted to. So I tripped along at somewhere between 45K and 50K for each of the weeks of June - I'll come back this this point later..

Also I then had a 5K on the 30th, and again, really conscious of what happened last time I added speed and distance into my training I kept the volume comfortable and added a little speed work in. A set of 100's 200' 400's, a bit of steady running which was to keep the HR under 150 and worked out at roughly last years marathon pace, a set of 5x1k which gave me a bit of confidence that there was maybe the potential to do something good in the 5k and then a set of 12 x 200's which I like to use to recruit the muscles that couldn't be arsed engaging most of the time when I'm running!

Saint Coca's 5K Race report

I wasn't sure what would happen here, I wanted it to go well as I wanted a confidence booster for starting the marathon block. Earlier in the year I said I'd target going sub 19 this year - 4 trips to the physio scratched that off the list for me. I did however say that I'd target a sub 20 for this.. which was ambitious...

Headed over and joined @skyblue46 and S on their warm up and saw @Murph_D and @Laineyfrecks on their warm ups too. I'm not sure what I was feeling here, I very much tried to keep it out of my mind, so not nervous but certainly not gung-ho. We lined up and I hung back a bit, I knew Lainey was going for a sub 20 and was being paced by @scotindublin but I wasn't sure I could join that particular bus, confidence wasn't there for it I think. I would have been happy with a 20:XX

It was a really congested start, loads of runners very tightly packed, we were off and although it was busy I didn't find it too bad in that everyone around me was running at a fair auld pace so there wasn't much overtaking or weaving needed. I was keeping an eye on the watch for the first km, just making sure I wasn't going too fast, hitting around the 4m/km mark and after 1 k I did a mental check, i was feeling ok, breathing was fine and it didn't feel too hard, good sign. Again most of the runners around me were doing a very similar pace, a very strong field I must say, and I just kept it going.

I think somewhere between 1 and 2 k's I saw Lainey and scotindublin up ahead. Knowing what they were up to I tried to keep them in sight. Now for the fuzzy part, I basically hopped onto the very last seat of the bus and for almost the rest of the race I only focused on the shoes in front of me. Sometimes they were close, sometimes father away, but that was all I could see. I knew were were on some country roads, noticed some undulations, at 2.7k I looked at the watch, 3.58 average, this was good and I wasn't struggling, just tried to keep it up.... My mantra was drop the shoulders, breath steady and relax. I kept telling myself this over and over

3.7K is a thing for me, every 5K I hit that distance and want to stop, everything hurts and I want to give up, I didn't this time, I kept relaxed. 4.2K was another story, it hit me like a brick and hurt, but it was only 800 to go, I could do this, I passed S here with a little thumbs up on my part, it was nothing like what I felt!!. Someone was shouting sprint now, I'm short sighted, I couldn't see the gantry so I'd no idea why, suddenly it appeared and I put in a burst, across the line, 19.54, I was really very pleased, only my second every sub 20.

There was a bit of a huddle afterwards and mostly happy faces. I thanked scotindublin, although he had no idea who I was or that he was pacing me as well and a big congrats to Lainey who also went sub 20 and a very well deserved result for her. @AuldManKing joined us and was talking about the housing estate, I was totally perplexed, I had absolutely no memory of running through a housing estate 🤯

The 5K is a bit of a beast, I mentally struggle with it. My interval times suggest sub 20 shouldn't be an issue for me at all, as do a couple of my longer distance pb's but for some reason going sub 20 is a real challenge mentally, perhaps with my second sub 20 under my belt it won't seem like such a huge hill to get over....

Back to the point I made about the base running I was doing. I can't remember which youtube video I was watching, could even have been an amalgamation of a few however there was chat about building up your base, not just in a block but over time and how it can take years to get your fundamental base up. I was looking back at my log from last year and around June my base level was around 30 to 35 k per week before going into the marathon plan. June this year, it was 45k, I think this shows that the base is building and what I can handle week on week is increasing. When I find the video I'll throw it up here as I'd be interested in other people opinions.

Absolutely delighted for you🤗 it was a brilliant run from you, happy to be able to celebrate it with you afterwards 😊

I also took part, but had no plan at all going into it as I came back from a 2 week holiday lunchtime Saturday. The plan was to go out and run it easy so I started with a lad I know a little behind the 60 min pacers as that was the time he was going for. My plan was to stick with him about 50m behind the pacers until 2km and then push on, which I did. After quickly making my way past folks I entered a lot of traffic but luckily there was another runner who had similar ideas and found gaps that I followed which involved a lot of squeezing through, quick turns of pace, and running on grass verges avoiding the nettles. Only challenge was when I got to the 55 min pacer, it was on one of the lane ways and the group around them was spread all the way across with no way to squeeze by, so had to ask for some space, which I got. Pushed on and finished chip time of about 51:30 (gun about 54:30). About 4 mins off a recent PB, but the goal was to stretch the legs, not get injured and be ready for marathon training - which hopefully I am.

I agree with others that the delay at the beginning was not ideal. We had no idea why. The weather was great although warmer than I expected. I always like the series as they are always very well run.

In terms of the plan, I just want to check some of the paces in it.

CV is basically 10K pace (for me around 4.10 m/k to 4.15 m/k)

Threshold is around 10 m/k slower? So around 4.20

What about the tempo, tempo seems to be anything up to marathon pace - any guidance there? I was thinking of adding another 10 secs to Threshold

Also just generally on the plan, unlike the Novices plan, there is no PMP pace / effort, it's all above PMP pace or below it, am I reading it correctly? Unless tempo is supposed to be marathon pace?

Some solid advice there, I did do a lot of what you mentioned. The one thing I wasn't doing and have started doing the last few weeks is taking a magnesium supplement. Hopefully this helps.