Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

ulsteru20s · 30-05-2023 7:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659328#Comment_120659328

There is no universe where Conan is as good a power carrier as Coombes. That is the wildest statement i’ve ever heard.

Conan is an additive player. If you already have an enough power he can thrive. He isn’t foundational.

sprucemoose · 30-05-2023 7:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659254#Comment_120659254

i know, i wasnt actually suggesting jimmy o brien is covering the backline and also openside flanker

30-05-2023 7:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659305#Comment_120659305

I don't think it's fair to suggest there's a Leinster bias in this selection.

To me, if you look at the handful of selections here where there is some debate around inclusion, it's not really a Leinster player who got the nod:

-LHP - Munster's Dave Kilcoyne is the surprising inclusion, ahead of Munster's Jeremy Loughman

-Second Row - for me, Ulster's Kieran Treadwell is the one who's lucky to get there, but I guess you could argue Joe McCarthy is fortunate too (but I think McCarthy's ceiling is way higher than Treadwell's, and think the coaching team do too).

-Wings - Jacob Stockdale and Keith Earls probably lucky to be included, ahead of Robert Baloucoune, Shane Daly or Jordan Larmour.

Ciaran Frawley is a unique kind of player because he's started games (and played well) for Leinster this year at 10, 12, 13 and 15, and the only guy with a comparable level of versatility is Jack Crowley (who's in the squad).

The last arguably contentious call is Jamie Osborne over Antoine Frisch - but once again, they've picked a guy who's started games at 11, 12, 13 and 15 (and played at a really high level in those games - he was on the original longlist for Player of the Year in Europe) over a guy who is predominantly just a thirteen. Osborne is also the bigger and more athletic guy (which seems to count for a lot with Farrell), as well as being 6 years younger.

I agree with those who said he hasn't necessarily selected this based on provincial form, but I don't think anyone can claim any kind of Leinster bias in the selection.

eagle eye · 30-05-2023 7:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659328#Comment_120659328

In fairness it's easier to look good playing for Leinster than for almost every other team.

If Coombes was in that Leinster squad he might look every bit as good as Conan.

Doris is on a different level to any of them.

ulsteru20s · 30-05-2023 7:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659361#Comment_120659361

There is a bias but there is a good reason for it. Most of the elite players play for leinster, the system is similar, so therefore it makes sense to find players who fit that system. Leinster players are like already vetted to some degree in that sense.

As long as the absolute elite players continue to be from leinster, its not a crazy way to pick a team.

I mean in simple teams if Hodnett played for Leinster you’d already know how he fits in VdF’s role. There is no mystery.

30-05-2023 7:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659369#Comment_120659369

Which selections are the result of bias then, and who would you have taken in their stead?

AbusesToilets · 30-05-2023 7:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659362#Comment_120659362

Yes and no. The standard of play is higher in Leinster, but there's also way more competition for places. Conan is pushing Doris to 6, and keeping Deegan out of the 23, who's I'd argue is international standard in his own right. Coombes doesn't have near that level of competition.

cuttingtimber22 · 30-05-2023 7:50pm

I think what is surprising is that there are players who have sat on the bench or in the treatment room this season, who are not starting players and have very little field time are being preferred to battled hardened trophy winning players.

ulsteru20s · 30-05-2023 7:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659380#Comment_120659380

Oh god osborne and mccarthy in this squad at all. No idea how they are in based on actual play. Frawley hasn’t played well enough at any of his three positions to be in this squad.

Coombes only having two caps when he is an obvious power guy. What happens if some combo of ryan, porter, furlong, sheehan go down? We then need power in the back row. How is balacoune not in this squad? Kleyn is a better player than mccarthy right now.

cuttingtimber22 · 30-05-2023 7:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659409#Comment_120659409

You can add Haley to that. Has had a fantastic season and would do a good job as second FB.

As a Munster supporter I could not complain if Killer or indeed Earls were left out. Although I can see why Earls is still in.

30-05-2023 7:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659409#Comment_120659409

So, who are you picking instead of Jamie Osborne or Ciaran Frawley?

On Joe McCarthy - I get it, but he's clearly a guy they love and think has a huge ceiling. He's 21 years old. Jean Kleyn hasn't been in or around the Ireland squad since the last RWC, so clearly isn't in their thoughts, but, beyond this, Kieran Treadwell is the egregious pick in the second rows. He's had an abysmal season and would be fifth or sixth choice at Leinster IMO.

Who are you dropping to pick Gavin Coombes? Are you suggesting any of Caelan Doris, Jack Conan or Josh van der Flier don't deserve to be in there?

What about the guys who aren't from Leinster and have no demonstrable form that have been included like Dave Kilcoyne, Keith Earls, Jacob Stockdale, Iain Henderson?

eagle eye · 30-05-2023 7:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659382#Comment_120659382

Conan isn't pushing Doris. Doris can play anywhere and we are weaker at 6 so they play him there as Conan at 8 is a better option than anybody else at 6.

That's based on his play at Leinster where he has Doris and VDF playing with him. Who wouldn't look good playing beside those two?

Personally I rate Deegan as at least on the same level as Conan. I think he's been unlucky with injuries at the wrong time.

I'm not saying Coombes is better, I'm just saying that it's harder to gauge how good he is.

ulsteru20s · 30-05-2023 8:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659448#Comment_120659448

Balacoune, Hume, Haley, Frisch l, Daly depending on how you want to play it positionally.

sprucemoose · 30-05-2023 8:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659382#Comment_120659382

moving doris is constantly questioned though and was one of the decisions questioned by alot of pundits after the final. i like conan and hes been played fantastically lately, but i dont know if the thing of playing the best players out of position is necessarily the best idea just to get them on the pitch

there are also many examples of players down the depth chart who were talked up and didnt show much after moving.

30-05-2023 8:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659451#Comment_120659451

Jack Conan gets wildly disrespected at times - he was MotM in the European Cup Round of 16 against Ulster, probably should have been in the semi against Toulouse when scoring two tries, and was possibly the best back rower in the final too. He was also brilliant for Ireland at the conclusion of the 6 Nations.

30-05-2023 8:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659465#Comment_120659465

They're both centres and of the guys you're listing, only Frisch and Hume are centres.

In no world can you bemoan Ciaran Frawley's form and then claim James Hume has a better claim - he's been abysmal this season and has played his own way out of the squad at this point.

Antoine Frisch is a serviceable centre, but looks to have a relatively low ceiling IMO. He doesn't have the versatility of either Frawley or Osborne.

I agree with you that all three of Baloucoune, Daly and Haley are unlucky to be on the outside, but Baloucoune's form has been poor, and he's been given multiple chances by Ireland and not really delivered. I'm sky high on his potential, but he's not doing it.

For all three of those, the players keeping them out anyway are Jacob Stockdale and Keith Earls, two players who also don't have anything much in the way of form to point to.

ulsteru20s · 30-05-2023 8:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659499#Comment_120659499

Hume has way more experience and had a way higher peak than frawley ever had. Frisch has also played better in the last 6 weeks in pressure games than either of those guys.

If any player from another province had their cvs they would be nowhere near this kind of squad.

Frawley’s entire selling point is he can play three positions. He has shown nothing special in any of them. Hume has shown he can break games open.

AbusesToilets · 30-05-2023 8:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659451#Comment_120659451

Think you're a bit dismissive of Conan's value relative to the other two. He could also play at 6, but they're moving Doris out of his best position to accommodate him. Conan also helps the other 2 look good as much as they do him. Agree re: Deegan, thought he'd shown enough quality this season to warrant a spot, but so has Hodnett.

stephen_n · 30-05-2023 8:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659287#Comment_120659287

Conan since the 6N is keeping the best 8 in the country out of the 8 slot for Leinster. I don’t see Coombes getting past either for Ireland.

Clegg · 30-05-2023 8:21pm

Conan has been excellent since like February. I can see the argument for saying he was lucky to make the Six Nations squad. But his performances in that tournament and in the Champions Cup cemented his position in the squad. Has been putting in motm worthy performances consistently.

30-05-2023 8:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659507#Comment_120659507

Ah come on.

Antoine Frisch's CV is hardly stellar - he's turning 27 in a couple of days, and after a heady few seasons playing alongside the galacticos at Rouen, Massy and Tarbes, he had a season at Bristol. He wasn't anywhere near on the radar for either France or England. Yeah, he's finished the season well for Munster and played okay, but he's hardly tearing up trees either.

James Hume hasn't played a good game of rugby since probably the end of the 2021/22 season. He doesn't have way more experience either - he's played c. 15 times more for Ulster, a distinctly inferior team, than Frawley has for Leinster. At his best, Hume is a player who is talented enough to be in this squad but since the injury in NZ against the Maori he hasn't regain his form, and probably shouldn't have been in Ulster's first choice XV this season.

You're touting here for two guys who are really only 13s, (when our first and second choice 13s are clearly Ringrose, then Henshaw so it's a fairly pointless debate), and studiously ignoring the fact I pointed out about both players - Frawley started and played well in games at 10, 12, 13 and 15 this season, while Osborne started games at 11, 12, 13 and 15. That, along with Frawley's ability to goalkick and Osborne's sheer youth and athleticism are why they're in the squad.

I don't think you've really made your case here for egregious Leinster bias, and you've continually ignored the points I've made about the inclusion of Kilcoyne, Treadwell, Earls, Stockdale and Henderson.

It's clear from all of this that Farrell has a view on guys who fit his system, and he rewards form of guys in Irish camps more highly than provincial form. That's the explanation for the 5 guys I've mentioned there presumably (Treadwell et al).

aloooof · 30-05-2023 8:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659482#Comment_120659482

He also gets wildly defended at times on here too tbh.

I remember getting slaughtered for suggesting he had a drop in form, and should drop out of the 15 for the NZ tour and 23 for AI’s.

Turns out he did have a drop in form that coincided with his health issue.

He’s been exceptional since the 6N, mind.

Clegg · 30-05-2023 8:39pm

Jamie Osborne hasn't played since March due to injury, but before that he was well deserving of a call up. Was consistently performing at a high level for Leinster in the Champions Cup. I think he's at least as good as Frisch is right now and is also significantly younger.

But beside all that, he must have really impressed on the Ireland A tour like Crowley did. We've heard before about how much Farrell wants players he feels makes positive contributions around the team environment. It's why I think he didn't have an issue starting an unproven Crowley against Australia.

eagle eye · 30-05-2023 8:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659524#Comment_120659524

Doris is far and away Ireland's best no.8 and it's not even close.

The reason he's being moved is that Conan is a better option at 8 than having anybody else but Doris at 6.

Conan is a fine player in his own right, no doubt about that but it doesn't mean he's a millions miles better than Coombes. As I said if you are playing beside Doris and VDF it makes your job a lot easier and you'll look a lot better. Unless we see Coombes play with Doris and VDF we'll never know.

ulsteru20s · 30-05-2023 8:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659545#Comment_120659545

Here’s Frawley’s recent cv:

Unused sub in game where he has the longest boot and leinster were down by 2 points. In a european cup final. Unused sub. I honestly thought he played a few minutes in this one. Maybe a trick of the memory.

Missed a pretty easy conversion to give Munster access back into the game. Didn’t start. This was in the URC semi final.

When was the last time Frawley has played a ‘good game’ of rugby. He didn’t even start in a game that apparently was their ‘B’ team.

Frisch has actually played well in recent big games. His CV is actually more impressive because he has been allowed on the field to play actual rugby in important games, and has then performed.

Frawley’s pedigree is based on nothing games and the fact that he plays behind really good players,,, so that makes him good?

awec · 30-05-2023 8:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659240#Comment_120659240

No not really.

Baloucoune has been injured, and Stockdale has been getting back to his old self (sort of) toward the end of the season.

I still think Stockdale will struggle to make the 33 though, unless he is incredible in the warm up games.

Neil3030 · 30-05-2023 8:51pm

The fact that there are 10 or so lads who would have a legitimate gripe shows how strong we are right now.

Meanwhile, Erasmus has his minions working double time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARM19ZTFE10

ulsteru20s · 30-05-2023 8:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659602#Comment_120659602

I get that then, but surely the time for developmental is over. Crowley’s recent form vindicates selection beyond being a pick for the future.

Osborne is getting treated like a proven vet coming back from an injury. That injury should have just ruled him out.

30-05-2023 8:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659621#Comment_120659621

He played really well (at 13, directly opposite Lukhanyo Am) in the URC QF against the Sharks - shut him down defensively, and had c. 60m carrying the ball, while also creating a try.

He played the last half an hour of Leinster's emphatic win over Toulouse in the European Cup semi final (at 12) - and played solidly as Leinster closed out the win.

He played the last 25 mins of Leinster's European Cup QF win over Leicester (at 15), playing solidly again. Had a good line break, 16m off 3 carries and defended well. Leinster scored three tries during this period.

I could keep going, but it looks like you were a little selective when you outlined his "recent CV". These are all games in knock out rugby at the business end of the season. Can you genuinely even recall James Hume's last good game?!

ulsteru20s · 30-05-2023 8:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659664#Comment_120659664

So, he played really well in games where the best squad in club rugby were really on top and unused or anonymous in close games? Is that another way to translate that?

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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