Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

realhorrorshow · 31-05-2023 12:21pm

Has Dave Kilcoyne adapted his game much under Rowntree? Not sure I've ever seen him pass , but didn't see much of him this season. Not sure how the Kilcoyne of old would fit into Ireland's attaching system.

31-05-2023 12:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120661607#Comment_120661607

Fair to say there's a lot of bias in the World Cup training squad towards the lads who just won a Grand Slam for us.

Cop on to yourself, will you?

Would be fantastic if people could knock the provincial sniping and bullshit on it's head for a few months and just focus on the RWC.

aloooof · 31-05-2023 12:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120661598#Comment_120661598

Doesn’t change my point of “Last 3 months”. Last International game was March.

Since then, Archer’s been in better form imo.

AbusesToilets · 31-05-2023 12:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120661648#Comment_120661648

Highly debatable, and Archer has never been near good enough for international duty.

pickarooney · 31-05-2023 12:26pm

If we want to compare players, I think we need to do so in good faith and compare the same things.

Frisch was playing in ProD2 while Osborne was playing U20s. Kind of pointless to compare. Frisch was several years older at that point and had never been considered for national selection at underage level nor had be made it in the Top14, being cast adrift from SF without an appearance. He's very much an example of a late bloomer.

Whatever your views on the English premiership, his potential was recognised and he got regular playing time at Bristol where his potential was again recognised by Munster. He's had a very good first season there and it would not be a huge surprise if he earned a call-up to an extended squad (probablmy a surprise to his former coaches in France, that said). He did make the Emerging Ireland squad before he'd even established himself at Munster so his potential has again been recognised by the Irish coaches.

In his brief appearances, Jamie Osborne has turned heads. He's attracted attention and huge praise from players, pundits and coaches. There's little doubt that he's a serious talent. He first got luck with injuries to other players giving him a shot, then unlucky with his own injuries. He does not, at this point, have a body of work from which to ascertain if he is an international-level player. It takes not just a huge level of talent but also consistent performances to make that level, and a lot of players just will not get there. There are examples within and without this Ireland squad (Larmour, McCarthy and Baloucoune have the talent but are just missing the consistency or the versatility, Kleyn and Daly have the consistency but perhaps not the level of talent the coaches require).

Osborne, Stockdale and a few others have been selected presumably based entirely on promise and Ross Byrne and Kieran Treadwell for example seem to be there primarily for their consistency, at least where the national team is concerned. Some players seem to just fit the Ireland system better and that's a perfectly fine criterion for selection as well.

I think it's fair to debate the merits of players and the reasons for their selection without all this tiresome accusation of bias, accusing posters of hysteria or blindness or ignorance for having an opposing viewpoint. It's the Ireland squad, after all. We're supposed to be fans.

awec · 31-05-2023 12:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120661607#Comment_120661607

Knock the provincialism on the head please.

aloooof · 31-05-2023 1:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120661661#Comment_120661661

I've never claimed he has been. But on recent form he's been superb. Yet your "lol" response is typical of the kind of disparaging remark he attracts.

It's part of the reason I've been really enjoying his recent form, tbh.

Former Former Former · 31-05-2023 1:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120661662#Comment_120661662

I can't speak for others but I'm posting 100% in good faith.

I wasn't comparing Frisch to Osborne because, as I keep saying, they're not in competition with each other. I was just saying the only basis on which to judge Frisch is his time at Munster, all of which has been at 13 and which has been up and down, if we're being honest.

If we're just looking at Frisch in isolation, and whether or not he deserves to be in this squad, the body of evidence in his favour is pretty thin. If he had been called up, as you say it wouldn't have been a shock, but equally he's not particularly hard done by to find himself on the outside.

You rightly point out that he was in the Emerging Ireland squad... but take that to its logical conclusion. The coaches had a couple of weeks to look at him and declined to look at him again. That's in contrast to Crowley, Frawley, Nash, Stewart, McCarthy and Prendergast who find themselves in the wider RWC squad seven months later.

Even from a Munster perspective, I would say Shane Daly has a lot more cause for complaint.

aloooof · 31-05-2023 1:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120661643#Comment_120661643

My impression is not particularly, and certainly not as much as Loughman and Wycherly. He looks for contact rather than the passing option a lot. (And he's had some scrum issues too this season).

His last start was vs Sharks. He's down for 10 carries and 1 pass over 59 minutes.

Josh Wycherley came on for the remaining 21 minutes and had 3 carries by 6 passes.

Now, there's possibly an element of having to force it more later in the game but to me, that would be fairly typical of his season.

stephen_n · 31-05-2023 1:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120661554#Comment_120661554

Which is exactly why we shouldn’t pick on form.

cuttingtimber22 · 31-05-2023 1:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120661828#Comment_120661828

I don’t believe that Archer is a consistent international standard tight head although his form has been brilliant the last few months.

But when I hear of untouchables, reputation over form etc. then we are back to the 2007 World Cup and we might as well prepare ourselves for an early exit. Which is probably the most likely outcome given the draw we have.

ulsteru20s · 31-05-2023 1:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120660693#Comment_120660693

On the 33 man squad, absolutely not. On this squad, i’d have him so that if something did happen to ringrose or henshaw you could bring him in more ready later. He would have some familiarity. Because yea if we had an injury crisis at centre, i’d prefer Frisch to Frawley or Osborne.

ulsteru20s · 31-05-2023 1:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120660927#Comment_120660927

It’s more like when you say the sky is blue and someone says nah, its purple. And then you are like, wait no, the sky is blue obviously. And then they say dude you are so obsessed with the sky being blue.

ulsteru20s · 31-05-2023 1:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120661662#Comment_120661662

Frisch is 27 which is the literal prime in most sports and is playing really well right now.

Osbourne is much younger and has been injured for weeks.

If we want to get down to brass tacks.

Clegg · 31-05-2023 1:58pm

Osborne is also a better player.

ulsteru20s · 31-05-2023 2:00pm

In 2027 maybe, now I don’t think so.

Former Former Former · 31-05-2023 2:11pm

"He's 27" isn't an argument for picking a guy.

ulsteru20s · 31-05-2023 2:14pm

He has a lot of potential isn’t either at this point.

stephen_n · 31-05-2023 2:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120661946#Comment_120661946

There have been suggestions of untouchables for every coach since Eddie. Murray and POM in recent years, until they got dropped. This form player or that form player should be picked. To be honest is complete and utter BS. Rugby is a professional sport, that is results driven. Coaches don’t pick on sentiment.

Furlong is most definitely off form but you are comparing him to a level of performance Archer has never nor ever will achieve. Furlong playing poorly is probably still a far better performance than Archer playing well. We just know he can play a hell of a lot better.

RichieRich_89 · 31-05-2023 2:45pm

Frisch?!

Think I'd have him down around 10th choice 13 if he's up against the following players: Ringrose, Henshaw, J. O'Brien, Aki, Osborne, Hume, Luke Marshall, Stewart Moore, Tom Farrell, Ciaran Frawley.

He's fine, but nothing special. It's not controversial in the slightest that he hasn't made this panel.

Former Former Former · 31-05-2023 3:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120662189#Comment_120662189

Couldn't agree more.

aloooof · 31-05-2023 3:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120662235#Comment_120662235

Furlong playing poorly is probably still a far better performance than Archer playing well.

I don’t expect Archer to be anywhere near the Irish setup so this is moot, but I couldn’t disagree more with this, given the respective performances we’ve seen over the last 2-3 months.

31-05-2023 3:10pm

People are over exaggerating Furlong's poor performances too. His issues have been his durability and getting him on the field and then keeping him there, but while he's been out there he has played pretty well. He hasn't been as effective a carrier or in loose play, but has held up in tight exchanges just fine.

He was good against both Scotland and England in the 6 Nations, and was good in the European Cup run in. Part of our problem in the final was losing him (and James Ryan).

He hasn't been at his exceptional best but he hasn't been a negative either, by any stretch.

pickarooney · 31-05-2023 3:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120662173#Comment_120662173

It's not, but "he wasn't that good three years ago" isn't either. I don't think age is a particularly valid criteria for the world cup (preparation) squad. If the coaches are already looking beyond that then it makes sense to pick an early 20s player over a mid 30s player all else being equal.

I'd break the squad down roughly like this. Some players would fit several categories but I've stuck with one each.

Undroppable (UND) Clearly best player in position, top talent, always performs

Credit in Bank (CIB) Best in position, out of form/injured

Big Potential (POT) Young, talented, still a lot to prove

Dependables (DEP) Not first choice, always performs

Versatile (VER) Can play several positions to high level

Dan Sheehan (Leinster) UND

Rónan Kelleher (Leinster) DEP

Rob Herring (Ulster) DEP

Tom Stewart (Ulster) POT

Andrew Porter (Leinster) UND

Cian Healy (Leinster) DEP

Dave Kilcoyne (Munster) CIB

Tadhg Furlong (Leinster) CIB

Finlay Bealham (Connacht) DEP

Tom O’Toole (Ulster) POT

James Ryan (Leinster) UND

Tadhg Beirne (Munster) UND

Iain Henderson (Ulster) CIB

Ryan Baird (Leinster) POT

Joe McCarthy (Leinster) POT

Kieran Treadwell (Ulster) DEP

Peter O’Mahony (Munster) UND

Josh van der Flier (Leinster) UND

Caelan Doris (Leinster) UND

Jack Conan (Leinster) DEP

Gavin Coombes (Munster) POT

Cian Prendergast (Connacht POT

Jamison Gibson-Park (Leinster) UND

Conor Murray (Munster) DEP

Craig Casey (Munster) DEP

Caolin Blade (Connacht) POT

Johnny Sexton (Leinster) UND

Ross Byrne (Leinster) DEP

Jack Crowley (Munster) POT

Ciarán Frawley (Leinster) VER

Bundee Aki (Connacht) DEP

Robbie Henshaw (Leinster) CIB

Garry Ringrose (Leinster) UND

Stuart McCloskey (Ulster) DEP

James Lowe (Leinster) UND

Hugo Keenan (Leinster) UND

Mack Hansen (Connacht) UND

Jimmy O’Brien (Leinster) VER

Keith Earls (Munster) CIB

Jamie Osborne (Leinster) POT

Calvin Nash (Munster) POT

Jacob Stockdale (Ulster) CIB

ulsteru20s · 31-05-2023 3:49pm

Furlong has to play if he is fit and he should be fit. He is way too good to drop.

31-05-2023 3:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120662661#Comment_120662661

I agree with the approach you're taking, but not necessarily all the classifications.

Where I would differ though is I don't believe Jamie Osborne is in this squad with one eye on the 2024 Six Nations or 2027 RWC. He's a very talented player, who the coaches and management believe could potentially be a bolter for this world cup.

It's not a direct competition between him and Antoine Frisch or Shane Daly or Jordan Larmour, but he is in this squad because the coaches feel he can be a contributor this time around, same as all the selections people on here are finding hard to understand.

AdamD · 31-05-2023 4:09pm

Questioning Osbourne over Frisch will lead to some very quotable posts in a couple of years

stephen_n · 31-05-2023 4:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120662458#Comment_120662458

I think you’re missing the point somewhat. I don’t think Furlongs performances have been that poor. Respectively I don’t think Archer has outperformed Furlong from what I have seen. Just one has upped his level of performance and is being judged on that. The other has underperformed and is being judged on that. It’s always going to seem favorable to the one over performing.

ulsteru20s · 31-05-2023 4:19pm

I think the assumption that new leinster players of each successive generation are automatically going to be as good as the ones that came before will be very entertaining in a few years as well.

aloooof · 31-05-2023 4:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120662780#Comment_120662780

Respectively I don’t think Archer has outperformed Furlong from what I have seen.

I don’t think I’m missing the point tbh; I just think we disagree on their respective current form.

Imo, Archer’s been better.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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