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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Anything is possible in an election however it won't change the path we're on

    Are you expecting some kind of a roll back, because that is not going to happen



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 12,993 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    The prudent thing to do would be to remove the Climate bill from law because (a) it's in no way achievable and (b) if followed through on it has the real possibility of crippling the country economically.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • Registered Users Posts: 170 ✭✭WheelieKing


    Ryan will still get votes from the well off leafy Dublin suburb class who drive an 80k electric car to virtue signal but are happy enough to take short haul flight city breaks and international holidays several times a year.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,404 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    You are really really naive to think the second sentence of this post is true. If you think political parties who run on a platform of running the country into ground will win elections I can’t really take you seriously anymore.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,559 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    There's already several hundred MWh of Grid Scale batteries on the Irish power system and all are Lithium based. At least one has a less than perfect track record. Do your own homework, I've already had to explain electricity system basics to you and correct your many misunderstandings, now you want me to provide evidence that you can ask for yourself?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]



    I'm going to ask you to outline how the emission reduction actions will, in your words, "run the country into the ground".

    As I've shown from the recent Eurostat publication, its possible to grow GDP while reducing emissions. We can see this in our own historical data where we've grown to 40% renewable generation and have consistently grown GDP at the same time. The only dip was related to the global crisis period which was, well, global. On that basis your assumption would appear untrue unless you have some data to show otherwise. I would welcome a look at any such data.

    Also, as has been mentioned numerous times, all parties, without exception, approved the climate action legislation. The only ones who rejected it were a handful of independents.

    Finally, there will be no roll back. The approach may be modified however only where it can be shown that such modifications will increase the rate at which we meet emission targets, will such modifications not encounter legal challenge from local entities or the EU. No modifications which will result in the status quo or an increase in emissions or a slow down in the rate of reductions, will be allowed to stand and will be struck down by the courts.

    Any steps to do so will just delay the transition and result in much harsher measures later to make up the difference.

    This is already built into the legislation and again, agreed to be every single party.

    It literally makes zero difference who gets into power next time around as they will still be held to the same targets, plans and actions which said parties have already voted for.

    There is no altering the path we're on.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,559 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    There is plenty of altering the path we're on. It just requires undoing some of the legislation that put us on this path in the first place. It's not like breaking an egg that can't be unbroken. Many factors, man-made or otherwise can lead to very different paths. But you love trotting out empty bytes that it's Green Party politics or nothing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,434 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Ryan might lose his seat but it won't be to SF. They already have a seat in DBS and won't be getting another. The question in DBS is whether 'the left' will hold their current three seats or FF/FG will manage two between them, as they probably should. If the latter it's a straight fight between Bacik and Ryan for the second left seat.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    By all means, outline how we can alter things and still achieve the targeted emission reductions. I'm always eager to hear of more ways we can get there

    Pick any sector, agri, transport, power generation etc and show which actions can be cancelled for that sector, why and what you would replace them with that would still allow us to meet targets.

    The underlying requirement is to hit those targets, the only thing that may change is the method by which we might do so.

    The nation has a 51% emission reduction target for 2030. To take one example, we initially targeted a 70% emission reduction for power generation, that was then increased to 80% to pick up the slack from the agri sector due to its reduced target (other sectors also had to share that burden to let agri off with a lower target). The annex of actions was then updated to reflect this higher target for power generation and all modifications for both sectors were done with the 51% overall reduction target in mind.

    So you can turn around and say "well we're just going to stop all agri related actions because reasons" however the agri emissions then need to be made up elsewhere. If you can't do that, then the change for the agri sector would be subject to legal challenge and as we've already seen, the courts would rule against the govt.

    However there is no party that will attempt a roll back for that reason plus the important reason that they all voted for these actions and targets so its not "Green Party politics" its "All Party politics"



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,559 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    You are forgetting thar we can choose to not meet any ridiculous targets. Not everything is set in stone because ER tells us.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,404 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    The nation has a 51% emission reduction target for 2030. To take one example, we initially targeted a 70% emission reduction for power generation, that was then increased to 80% to pick up the slack from the agri sector due to its reduced target (other sectors also had to share that burden to let agri off with a lower target). The annex of actions was then updated to reflect this higher target for power generation and all modifications for both sectors were done with the 51% overall reduction target in mind

    And what happens if we fail to meet the targets? Do we place a limit on the number of houses that can be constructed in a year if Housing doesn't reach its targets? Do we tell US multinationals to locate elsewhere (read no net emissions reductions) if we Enterprise or whatever department these emissions are allocated to don't reach their targets?

    Take Transport for example, an area which I do follow as you know. Here's what capital investment (non roads) will be delivered by 2030 (the construction of which will also cause emissions):

    DART+ West

    DART+ South West

    Cork suburban rail (partial - no new stations)

    Cycleways

    Potentially Luas Finglas

    Which means we'll be reliant on people not driving and large scale EV rollouts to provide the reductions needed - otherwise we have to start limiting people's freedoms re: transport. This is where the whole thing falls apart.

    However there is no party that will attempt a roll back for that reason plus the important reason that they all voted for these actions and targets so its not "Green Party politics" its "All Party politics"

    When the public cop on to what's actually involved to achieve these emissions reductions, watch the parties do a U turn. That's politics for you. No politician wants to be sacrificed at the alter of self legislated carbon emissions reduction targets.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    And what happens if we fail to meet the targets

    Missed targets result in the misses being added on to the next period. This is the Carbon Budget process

    The total emissions allowed under each budget is set out below, as well as the average annual reduction for each 5-year period:

    • 2021-2025: 295 Mt CO2 eq1. This represents an average reduction in emissions of 4.8% per annum for the first budget period.
    • 2026-2030: 200 Mt CO2 eq. The represents an average reduction in emissions of 8.3% per annum for the second budget period.
    • 2031-2035: 151 Mt CO2 eq. The represents an average reduction in emissions of 3.5% per annum for the third provisional budget.

    So for the first period the target is 295, if we only get to 100, then the 195 gets added onto the second budget period for a total target of 395 which means tougher actions are required for that period than originally envisaged

    When the public cop on to what's actually involved to achieve these emissions reductions, watch the parties do a U turn. 

    Everything that is actually involved is already published, some of which you outlined in your post



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,551 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    But sure thats a can kicking exercise



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,419 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    You haven't had to explain anything. You just took a pedantic literal interpretation of what I was saying. I guess you think it makes you look clever, but it doesn't.

    When I said selling electrons, I meant selling electricity that was generated somewhere else and is stored and released as the market demands it, which is different to selling fuel that will be used to generate electricity that is instantly consumed

    And when I said selling frequency, I was talking about grid servicing companies that sell the service of frequency regulation. This will be to replace the spinning reserve that large thermal power plants use for frequency regulation

    I cannot find any news online about all these regular fires in utility scale battery storage systems that you allude to. 'Less than perfect track record' sounds like you're backtracking on that claim already, and if you make the claim, you should provide the source. I don't have time to trawl through the internet to find what you're referring to

    I am aware that currently Most BESS do use Lithium Ion technology, but that is not likely to be the long term solution as grid scale batteries don't need to be as light or energy dense as mobile device batteries (including cars) the demand for Lithium will probably mean BESS will use flow batteries instead. (plus things like Pumped Hydro) Redox flow batteries, are cheaper, safer, don't require as many rare resources and can be scaled more easily, and have longer life cycles than Lithium Ion batteries.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Some news on the hydrogen front

    The National Hydrogen Strategy looks like it's due for publication before the end of the year too which should give more info on how it's going to be rolled out



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,551 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    Did we not give planning for a green hydrogen place in Mayo last week? Whats the benefit of saying we'll work with Germany?



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,379 ✭✭✭✭ednwireland




  • Registered Users Posts: 171 ✭✭200mg


    Any news on the hottest summer ever due to el nino this year ? Temps seem pretty normal.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,559 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    The only backtracking being done is by you - "when I said selling electrons I really meant...", "when I said selling frequency I really meant...". You got two fundamental concepts completely arseways and showed yourself up and are now trying to deflect that I'm somehow wrong for correcting you? The fact that you are still trying to claim that there's" grid servicing companies" whatever they are and they are "selling the service of frequency regulation" shows that you haven't the foggiest. Frequency regulation is provided by default by the governor or controller settings on the online generators and batteries dispatched by Eirgrid NCC. Eligible units get paid based on DS3 system service contracts but there's no buying and selling involved. At least, not yet as the regulators have asked for regular auctions in the future.

    From the outset, I stated that the media aren't reporting the battery issue for whatever reason. I don't know if it's a cover up or just a lack of awareness. But if you want to know more, submit an FOI request to Eirgrid or ESBN or the fire service.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,055 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Summer is less than two days old.

    World meteorological bodies have certainly shown the predictors for an El Niño season, but seeing as the phenomenon has been identified as occurring for thousands of years and was first described in realtime by humanity 500 years ago, its connection to any climate related issue is tenuous and the data will only show the scale of the effects of this occurrence after the fact.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    From the outset, I stated that the media aren't reporting the battery issue for whatever reason. I don't know if it's a cover up or just a lack of awareness. But if you want to know more, submit an FOI request to Eirgrid or ESBN or the fire service.

    I'm pretty familiar with the FOI process.

    Vague FOI requests are typically rejected by default. Successful FOI requests have narrow parameters. "Give me the secret info on the battery issue" would be rejected and such rejection would be upheld if appealed.

    I'll happily submit the FOI if you want to narrow the parameters e.g. Event details covering dates, locations, type of events etc etc which they would struggle to reject.

    Want to share those details? I'll keep you informed on the status of the FOI.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,055 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    The Carbon Budget, in all its severity, has no mandate from the people, as it hasn't passed an electoral test.

    If meeting its targets is going to cause real economic damage and hardship matters for ordinary households, not to mention farming families and other SME commercials who are being crucified by the provisions of the policy, then those provisions are open to be altered.

    I have no time to listen to Oisín Coghlan and his industry buddies trying to target low hanging fruit and by extension private individuals, households, small farms and small business, when the State is still burning coal in Moneypoint and granting wholesale permissions for data centres to gobble up the energy that it produces!

    It's time to stop harassing and blaming ordinary people for this stuff and posting the bill for it through their door relentlessly and stressfully.

    When we have greened our energy and insulated our new and existing buildings and brought in robust and explicit policies that reduce the need for the majority to commute often and reached the 35% EV target, then we can start looking at what remains.

    Nobody, but nobody, is going to vote to be poorer. Well, except some of the loony zealots on here and in Friends of the Earth.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,419 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia




  • Registered Users Posts: 22,419 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    One thing that are notoriously quiet and don't attract much attention are fleets of fire engines racing to put out fires at power stations and substations



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,559 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    You're right. I have nothing apart from hearsay and rumour from a friend in the Esb. Perhaps it's something, perhaps it isn't.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,385 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Unfortunately real world events and stories don't cut it for some posters. You can have the most reliable colleagues, neighbours or family members tell you about a real event. But unless its in the national media, a peer reviewed study or a press release from whatever Green publication of the day, it won't be believed.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    What you are referring to is called anecdotal evidence

    Myself and machiavellianme have discussed the FOI in PM so if something gets released, I'll post it here



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,419 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia




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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,993 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    Just one minor detail, data centers are persona non grata in Ireland these days. No new connections are being given for the Dublin region and it's very difficult to get one outside of there. I know they've been blamed as the big bad bogeymen by the media but the lack of joined up government policy and planning has left us where we are.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



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