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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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    #22862
    ScissorPaperRock
    Registered Users Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭ScissorPaperRock


    He should really stop focusing on his carrying



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    #22863
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    He doesn't have to carry the whole team at least



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    #22864
    snotboogie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120668964#Comment_120668964

    It really isn't. Unfortunately the URC don't keep passing stats but a huge amount of Munster plays run through his passes. Based on the eye test he is the best passer of any Irish back row for me. The URC do keep offload stats and Coombes averages by far the most of any Irish back row with one per game compared to his Ireland rivals; Doris, VDF and Penny 1 every 1.5 games, Conan 1 every 2 games, Deegan, Pendergast and O'Mahony 1 every 4 games and Connors 1 every 10 games.



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    #22865
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,449 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120668311#Comment_120668311

    Conan has had a resurgence in recent months, but he's no Coombes

    You're right. Conan gets picked for the national team.



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    #22866
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669195#Comment_120669195

    I'm a fan of Coombes, but to call him the best passer of any Irish backrow is a stretch for me.

    I don't know where you got your stats from, but they look off to me.

    If you look at the group you mentioned (I excluded Deegan, Prendergast because of their lack of European Cup minutes), then you see Coombes averages 0.8 offloads per game, across the URC and European Cup; which is exactly the same level as Caelan Doris (Doris 0.83 to Coombes 0.81 to be specific).

    Every player in the group has very strong tackle stats (all north of 90% success rate), but Coombes is lowest on 90%, with O'Mahony and Penny on 91% - Conan on 94%, Doris on 95%, and then JVDF and Hodnett on 96%.

    Coombes carries in big volumes, and has the most metres, but on a metres per game metric he's the leader on 31.4, but only marginally ahead of Jack Conan on 30.7. Next best is Doris on 28.3, followed by Hodnett on 27.8, then Penny on 24.3.

    On a metres per carry basis - he is the lowest of the entire group, averaging 2.1m per carry, just behind O'Mahony on 2.3. Best of the group is Doris, at 4.3m per carry, ahead of Hodnett on 4.2, VDF on 3.7, Penny on 3.3 and Conan on 3.1. Those carry stats are URC only as European Cup doesn't provide that stat.

    Josh van der Flier is the best passing Irish back row by a distance for me, and in the European Cup he threw by far the highest amount (41, or 6.8 per game). No other player has more than 4.

    I don't necessarily think these stats are that instructive, and they don't take into account the quality of opposition faced etc (i.e. the Leinster players in this sample played more European games, Coombes played more URC games, and more games generally), and absolutely think Coombes had an outstanding season, statistically and just generally, but don't try to use skewed numbers to paint an artificial picture either.



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    #22867
    cuttingtimber22
    Registered Users Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭cuttingtimber22


    Surely Munster doing well and Munster players improving and scoring world class tries should be celebrated. Instead there is nit picking. I cannot understand why.

    As regards Coombes - we all agree he did not perform V NZA for whatever reason I don’t know (a cold, a bad day at the office who knows). He was left out of the November internationals squad but went back to Munster and had a fantastic season getting better with every game. Surely that should be celebrated.

    Conan has also had a great season and had a critical role in the Grand Slam as an impact sub - he was behind Doris who is by a mile our best No.8.

    The question I have and surely Leinster supporters should have - did trying to accommodate both Doris and Conan in the starting back row weaken the back row as a unit? Did this impact on the result? That is not saying that Conan did not play well, but more so was Doris optimised as a 6? Would Conan coming on for the last 30 mins have led to a more favourable outcome.



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    #22868
    cuttingtimber22
    Registered Users Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭cuttingtimber22


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669339#Comment_120669339

    Based on those stats, Hodnett is desperately unlucky to be left out of the squad.



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    #22869
    snotboogie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669339#Comment_120669339

    The URC website. I find the websites that compile data to be a lot less reliable. Fair enough its tough to compare him with Doris and VDF based on this since they plays so few URC games comparatively. Even still using the compiled data it seems Coombes still offloads at worst as often as Doris and (I'm assuming since you didn't mention) more than any other Irish back row option. On all the other stats I'm not really making a case that he's an overall better player than any of the other Irish options, I'm just pointing out the narrative that he is just (or primarily) a good carrier in the tight is complete nonsense, made by people who either don't watch Munster or don't pay attention. Its interesting that Hodnett often suffers the same analysis as a limited crash ball merchant but as your stats (and actually watching him play) show he is an extremely explosive ball carrier.



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    #22870
    Clegg
    Registered Users Posts: 17,169 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    That's a great shout on VDF. He has been central to Leinster's excellent strike plays from set piece attacks. I've seen him throw perfect 20 metre passes off either hand from the base of the lineout to an oncoming receiver.

    I've so rarely seen a good player improve so many facets of his game to an elite level, later in their career. He's the most rounded backrow in Europe imo. Although I do think Doris has greater capacity at certain aspects of the game.



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    #22871
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669426#Comment_120669426

    I agree - I'd have him in there.



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    #22872
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669440#Comment_120669440

    Yeah, VDF's passing is just excellent. A lot of Leinster's (and Ireland's) creativity from lineout drives comes from the skillset VDF brings. When he's on the ball at the back of a maul, he's capable of a 20m pass to the 10, a variety of shorter options, or is a really effective carrier in his own right. I don't think there is another back row in Ireland with that in the locker.



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    #22873
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669426#Comment_120669426

    At whose expense? Coombes? Prendergast? Baird?



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    #22874
    cuttingtimber22
    Registered Users Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭cuttingtimber22


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669479#Comment_120669479

    I would say Prendergast. Hodnett is as close to a like for like replacement for VDF as we have. In my opinion Hodnett is a smarter player with a higher ceiling. I don’t think Prendergast did well on tour last summer - looked a little out of his depth tbh.



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    #22875
    AdamD
    Registered Users Posts: 12,631 ✭✭✭✭AdamD


    VDF played 9 for a lot of junior rugby



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    #22876
    cuttingtimber22
    Registered Users Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭cuttingtimber22


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669473#Comment_120669473

    When VDF came onto the scene I thought he was a special player yet I was surprised that he was being talked down in some Leinster circles who were of the view that certain players from certain schools were far better. Interesting how things worked out.



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    #22877
    snotboogie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669479#Comment_120669479

    Or just bring 43, the squad was originally meant to be 45 right?



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    #22878
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669522#Comment_120669522

    Yeah, that's what I'd have done - brought Hodnett, another THP (Salanoa I guess), and another 10 (Harry Byrne I suppose).



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    #22879
    OneLungDavy
    Registered Users Posts: 367 ✭✭OneLungDavy


    What I love about VDF is how he has evolved season-to-season.

    He was the best player in the world last year, mainly due to his explosive carrying. Getting POTY will put a massive crosshairs on you when defenders are lining up to smash you. He must have decided (and coaches probably) to alter his game to become more of a link player/passer. The amount of Ireland/Leinster tries this season that he was involved in is crazy, mostly linking up with backs in the wide channels.

    He won't get as many plaudits this season but he's been just as effective imo.



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    #22880
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,590 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669522#Comment_120669522

    Exactly



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    #22881
    Wegians89
    Registered Users Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭Wegians89


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669497#Comment_120669497

    So you’re getting rid of the only other out and out 6 in the squad behind POM ? If you’re kicking prendergast out of the squad based on what happened last summer Coombes would be in exile. Coombes has actually been dropped from the squad in the last year, where as prendergast had been the 24th man in the 6 nations, so arguably the next man in.



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    #22882
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Was Prendergast not playing 8 recently?



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    #22883
    Wegians89
    Registered Users Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭Wegians89


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669668#Comment_120669668

    He has started the last few games there recently yeah, but it’d be a similar situation of moving Doris to 6 to accommodate Conan. SHL was in great form so Prendergast got moved to 8 to accommodate this.

    Prendergast has also slotted in at lock for Connacht and against Fiji. So has a bit of versatility to him.



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    #22884
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669552#Comment_120669552

    I’d be more inclined to bring Milne than Harry Byrne. Having 4 props on each side would make more sense.



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    #22885
    snotboogie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669646#Comment_120669646

    Beirne is a world class 6, Baird is more than capable of playing there at the top level. We are far more exposed at 7.



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    #22886
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669692#Comment_120669692

    Yeah, I get that, and arguably Frawley is the 4th 10 in there anyway.

    Loughman would be ahead of Milne, but Loughman should be there instead of Kilcoyne.



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    #22887
    Former Former Former
    Registered Users Posts: 5,984 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Penny, Connors, Hodnett and Timoney lost out to POM's ability to play 7.

    Farrell didn't pick a squad to cover all injury eventualities, he picked the best players to populate a 33-man squad for the RWC.



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    #22888
    Wegians89
    Registered Users Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭Wegians89


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669725#Comment_120669725

    Doris, POM and even Beirne are more than capable at playing at 7. And probably to a better level at the World Cup than Hodnett who’s never been in camp before.

    Personally I’d have had Hodnett in the squad as a 43rd man, but not at the expense of any of the other back rows included, apart from maybe Coombes



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    #22889
    Clegg
    Registered Users Posts: 17,169 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669607#Comment_120669607

    He was Leinster's best player after Ryan went off. If was ultimately a losing effort, but he was exceptional in the Champions Cup final.

    The fact so many fans from other countries are complaining about his 'illegal' ruck work shows how good he is. Straight out of the McCaw begrudgery playbook. Same with Ryan actually.



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    #22890
    cuttingtimber22
    Registered Users Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭cuttingtimber22


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669646#Comment_120669646

    Baird is a far better 6 than Prendergast will ever be. Prendergast looked out of his depth at the level below International while Baird has shown that he is comfortable at that level and will get better.



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    #22891
    Former Former Former
    Registered Users Posts: 5,984 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669787#Comment_120669787

    Prendergast looked out of his depth at the level below International 

    You might think this but Andy Farrell very clearly does not.



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