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Abortion - It's back on the Irish political agenda

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  • 01-06-2023 11:56pm
    #1
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,359 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    Abortion has come back with a bang onto the Irish political agenda this week with the author of the independent report into abortion services appearing before the health committee this week. Following on from this PbP tabled a bill to make the following changes to the existing legislation:

    Decriminalise offences under the act

    Abolishe the 3 day wait period

    Extend the deadline from 12 weeks for non-ffa terminations.

    The government lost a vote to put a hold on the passage of the bill for a year.

    I suppose if people thought that this was a settled question after the referendum have been shown to be wrong. It will be interesting to see how this plays out, particularly the proposal to allow non-ffa termination at a later than 12 weeks.



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    #2
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    The delusion that people think this isn’t a settled question.

    We knew during the referendum that the Oireachtas would be allowed to legislate.

    We knew during the referendum that there would be a review.

    None of this is new. The three day waiting period is the most pointless guideline I’ve ever come across in Irish legislation.

    Watch now the hysterical fanatics claim that it will be abortions for all up to the point of labour because they get a kick out of scaring people.



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    #3
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]



    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/government-caught-out-as-private-members-bill-on-abortion-passes-dail-second-stage/a1629270024.html

    The Bill, in the name of TD Bríd Smith, will likely fall at a later stage, but surmounted its second stage to move on.

    I wouldn't be getting too worried about any changes, just yet.



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    #4
    Apollo Scarce Net
    Posts: 0 ✭ Apollo Scarce Net


    I’d be curious if anything has the 3 day waiting period really affected anyone deciding to have an abortion?

    outside of cases where said waiting period would push someone past the timeframe allowed.

    It seems rather pointless but it would be interesting to know if it has made a difference at all even if unlikely.



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    #5
    Ubbquittious
    Registered Users Posts: 6,204 ✭✭✭Ubbquittious


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120668621#Comment_120668621

    The 3 day wait and other things are just a sop thrown to the old catholic biddies and holy Joe's. They knew bringing them in they'd go eventually. They only serve as a sacrificial shield to stave off a tiny bit of hatred from the anti abortion crowd.



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    #6
    WrenBoy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,614 ✭✭✭WrenBoy


    So if the 12 week cut off is in the process of being removed is the new proposal to perform abortions up to the date of birth or what's the new proposal ?



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    #7
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669029#Comment_120669029

    You can read the Dail Debate on exactly what the Bill proposes here:

    https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/2023-05-25/43/


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    #8
    WrenBoy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,614 ✭✭✭WrenBoy


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669212#Comment_120669212

    Thanks, had a quick read, seems to be that it does indeed propose abortions up to date of birth.



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    #9
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,362 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120668662#Comment_120668662

    There will be changes - I'd bet my life the three-day wait is toast - but instigated by the government itself and will be unlikely to go as far as Brid Smith's bill.



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    #10
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669403#Comment_120669403

    Nah

    Leo Varadkar, Michael Martin and Stephen Donnelly will stall any changes and it won't go anywhere

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #11
    hoodie6029
    Registered Users Posts: 3,800 ✭✭✭hoodie6029


    Election looming so they’ll avoid this hot potato if they can.

    The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.



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    #12
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,359 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669400#Comment_120669400

    Well the proposal is for up to the date of viability which I suppose is technically the day before a birth could succeed. It's not stated but widely understood that it's 24 weeks.

    Extending the deadline though would be a significant departure from the current as there would be time for the in utero tests that are done for non fatal disability to inform the mother on whether or not to continue. Over time that could actually have quite a profound change on society, though it is probably happening already.



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    #13
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,952 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Anyone who thought the issue was "done" is clearly misguided on what we voted for by 2:1. The referendum was to allow the government legislate on an ongoing basis as it sees fit



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    #14
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    There is no way this Bill will pass, that has already been more or less said.

    It would have to pass through all 5 stages in the Dáil and all 5 stages in the Seanad, and then all proposed amendments have to go through the same stages, so no need for hysteria just yet.



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    #15
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,952 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669661#Comment_120669661

    Exactly. The likes of Brid and any other mouthpiece like her are not there to get bills passed, they are there as populists.



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    #16
    crossman47
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭crossman47


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669565#Comment_120669565

    It was but was widely misrepresented by Harris et al as approval of abortion. It was not. I voted to repeal as I felt the 8th amendment had no place in the constitution but I also do not want to see abortion on demand as in the UK. In fact, I am horrified by the annual figures since repeal. And no, I do not want to export our problem to the UK. I want pregnant women to be treated sympathetically and encouraged, where possible, to have their babies. We have many childless couples anxious to adopt.



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    #17
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,359 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669565#Comment_120669565

    While of course the vote was on the actual amendment, the debate was completely framed around the government's then white paper - the proposed legislation. Given that the white paper was so thoroughly endorsed it is a bit surprising that it's not being left alone for like 10 years. It seems to me that the government wants to pick up this hot potato, from which no political good can come from. It's not as if they need another issue to deal with.



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    #18
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,362 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669467#Comment_120669467

    Do you want to bet on that? I think you might be mistakenly taking Varadkar's 'reluctance' to make changes at face value

    https://www.thejournal.ie/review-of-states-abortion-laws-shortening-of-3-day-wait-period-6048746-Apr2023/

    We've heard this song from him before...

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/leo-varadkar-says-the-country-is-not-ready-for-abortion-on-demand/36136605.html




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    #19
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,362 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669857#Comment_120669857

    Were you aware of this when voting yes? Do you understand what it means?

    If Ireland votes in favour of repeal, the government has said it will introduce legislation permitting unrestricted abortion during the first 12 weeks of pregnancy.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/08/irelands-government-approves-bill-paving-way-for-abortion-referendum

    It might not be what you wanted but the government made quite clear it was what we were going to get if the country voted yes to repeal



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    #20
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,952 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669857#Comment_120669857

    Your post is an anti choice in denial 101.

    The vote was clear, the issue was clear, if you repeal the 8th and add this amendment, it puts it in the government of the day's hands. Frankly it's none of your business what a woman does with her body, that's between her and her GP. There is no misrepresentation when the actual bill head was public.



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    #21
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669857#Comment_120669857

    It’s absolutely none of your business on what a woman decides to do with their own body.

    Also, Irish women were having terminations for years, so the false sadness for couples trying to adopt doesn’t wash.



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    #22
    Wezz
    Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭Wezz


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669857#Comment_120669857

    As someone who works in the social work sector this idea that a ban on abortion will help childless couples have a family is all bs. There are not enough people willing to adopt. So what do we do with all the children born who have no families to take them Crossman? Will we put them in homes or sell them to rich Americans, haven't you tried that as a country before? Did it work?

    A few of the clients I have worked with have availed of abortions and I can see a positive benefit to them. For some, having a pregnancy would have been a disaster for all concerned so I am glad they have the option now to make a choice about what to do. These women don't have the choice to go to the UK.



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    #23
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120668662#Comment_120668662

    Yeah it might still be aborted by the sound of it, might take longer than 12 weeks for them to make that determination for their fam- I mean the government.



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    #24
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,706 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669491#Comment_120669491

    It'll be worse for them if they do. A lot of people are angry with the waffle and BS Varadkar and Donnelly are coming out with.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/oireachtas/2023/06/02/donnelly-says-pbp-abortion-bill-goes-miles-beyond-what-people-voted-for/

    When asked why he had abstained from the vote, Mr Donnelly told Newstalk Breakfast on Friday that the Bill did not respect the vote of the people in the referendum on removing the Eighth Amendment in May 2018.

    “I actually looked at the Bill in great detail. The Bill goes miles beyond what people voted for in repealing the Eighth. I made this point to Deputy Smith and to others who were supporting the Bill during the second stage debate.

    “I campaigned very hard for Repeal, but the Bill does not respect that vote at all because it goes way beyond that vote.”

    Total BS. We were not voting on a particular piece of legislation. We voted for Repeal for the precise reason to allow the Oireachtas to legislate in future as it sees fit. So bloody well get on with it Stephen.

    Post edited by Hotblack Desiato on

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #25
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,706 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669857#Comment_120669857

    Not allowing abortion on demand IS exporting the problem to the UK.

    Just as our flawed legislation is exporting many fatal foetal anomaly cases to the UK.

    Just as anyone who discovers their pregancy late / can't access a GP in time / local maternity unit refuses to carry out abortions, is exported to the UK

    What on earth makes you think you are in a better position than the woman herself to make a decision to continue a pregnancy, which will inevitably profoundly affect her life and health, possibly permanently? Women are adults. "Encouraged"? That is arrogance beyond belief.

    There's nothing "sympathetic" about taking away reproductive choice.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #26
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,706 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669883#Comment_120669883

    A review after three years was part of the legislation. The review only just got started within the three year period. How is sticking with flawed legislation for 10 years better than sticking with it for 5 years as we have done? I don't understand this mindset at all. It's as if people regard abortion as so shameful we better not talk about it unless we really really have to.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #27
    hoodie6029
    Registered Users Posts: 3,800 ✭✭✭hoodie6029


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120670892#Comment_120670892

    The anti-choice brigade are the loudest online and have plenty of prominent journalists and broadcasters too as well as a captive audience every weekend at mass to get their message out. That’s what the politicians fear. And the people who listen to anti-choice get out to vote.

    I hope they update the law to be more realistic but will changing it convert into votes for them or for Aontu etc? It’s hard to say but they (govt) are being very risk averse right now.

    The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.



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    #28
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,706 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I profoundly disagree. The anti-choicers were shown up in 2018, for all their bluff and bluster and expensive PR and billboards and zillions of posters, to be a completely busted flush.

    The odd independent (which is what Toibin is, really) might get a bit of mileage out of it but as far as proper parties go, not even FF is going to be able to make political gain out of being anti-choice.

    The ex-FG anti-choicers (Renua) got their asses handed to them and left politics. The anti-choice FFers mostly either changed their tune or got kicked out too (like my local FF ex-TD, once a poll topper, voted against allowing a repeal vote, gone and not coming back).

    Priests can preach to the converted at mass all they like, it won't change a single vote.

    Post edited by Hotblack Desiato on

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #29
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,362 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120670914#Comment_120670914

    That's not a realistic fear any more; the anti-choice independents are just going through the motions. Everyone knows any liberalisation of abortion law that comes out of the current process is a permanent fixture. Do you think if say the three-day waiting period is abolished, the likes of Mattie McGrath and Healy Rea will be making a big issue of it in their election campaigns, and making the reinstatement of it a priority if they are negotiating the formation of a government? Of course not...



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    #30
    Ubbquittious
    Registered Users Posts: 6,204 ✭✭✭Ubbquittious


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669857#Comment_120669857

    I am not convinced they should be encouraged. Child birth is painful, traumatic, permanently mutilates the body and risks death of the mother even today with all the modern hospital tech. Society just glosses over this because everyone is like "yay, omg! a baby! so amazing" but the reality is far more gruesome and it's all tidily brushed under the carpet and people don't like to talk about it.



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    #31
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,715 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120671368#Comment_120671368


    Ehh, at the risk of stating the obvious, it’s for those same reasons nobody talks about the realities of abortion either! There are many more reasons why people don’t like to talk about abortion, but none of that is relevant in the context of the review of existing Irish legislation in relation to the issue, nor the fact that one of the most important issues is the fact that the legislation was introduced without the resources to support it. It’s been a disaster in its implementation which is why women still prefer to go abroad rather than deal with the Irish system. It’s not that they now have a choice, it’s still pretty much Hobsons choice they have to deal with when they find themselves in those circumstances.



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