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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,470 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    To a certain extent, yes, but not in an ASW way.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Do they even have the hard points on the wings?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,470 ✭✭✭Dohvolle




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭roadmaster




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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Some coverage of the Committee hearing today, its as if some of the TDs actually expect something to happen?

    https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-defence-forces-action-plan-concerns-frustrations-6081437-May2023/?utm_source=shortlink



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,177 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Yerra they're only grandstanding. The moves to legislate for the CHoD and the imminent appointment of the Head of Transformation is exactly the sort of progress you'd expect by now.

    As I've been saying throughout, you have to put the structures in place and build the capacity to spend this new money, or it will simply go untouched and unspent.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭sparky42


    I mostly agree with you, but there are limitations (and lets not forget that the clock is starting to tick louder on how long this government has to do anything), I mean there are things that could be started that would have value and be "relatively" cheap like base improvements that might play a role in retention for example, nothing high end or complicated there. At the rate we are going what number are we going to be left with by the time any noticeable changes/investments start happening.

    At the rate we are going I'm starting to look at the Commission just like the PWC report on the Navy in the 90's or even further back than that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,177 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Nothing high end or complicated indeed, but there is public procurement to go through and a distinct lack of contractors with capacity to take any of it on.

    In fact, many contractors aren't tendering for public works generally because the margins are too tight on pricing at the moment and the risk of insolvency is great.

    But yes, the clock is against the Government and so the best thing they can do is leave the legislation in place for the new structures, as a fait accompli and begin the transformation process while attending to individual red list items like the primary radar and tactical air transport.

    It was never going to be completed in one Government term, half a term really. The most important step is to set an irreversible course, one that any Government that may contain Sinn Féin cannot fundamentally tamper with.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,470 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    No, the entire process has moved glacially from the outset. CoDF first met in December 2020 having been flagged as part of Prog For govt earlier in 2020. Took contributions, having committed to reporting back by December 2021. Feb 2022 they eventually escaped the clutches of DoD and released their idiots guide to fixing defence where the Govt was given 3 options.

    (a) SFA. (Not advised) Costs slightly more than currently.

    (b) Bare minimum but ASAP. Cost €0.5bn more that current spending. (Still nowhere near NATO numbers)

    (c) An Adequate force that can fulfil all current commitments, with ability to respond quickly to civil and military emergencies (including mention of the dreaded F&*%ter J*@£s). Cost €3bn, but still less than 2% of GDP.

    Govt sat on this report from February to July.

    They went with Option B, but ignored the ASAP bit, spread it out over 5 years, and created yet another committee to move forward on the least costly bits of option B, and report back in 6 months.

    That was July last year. The "Immediate actions" at this point are only 80% complete.


    Oh, I never mentioned Russia actually invaded a European state the same week the original report was released. Everyone else in Europe, whether NATO member or Neutral, all immediately decided to increase their defence budget dramatically. Sweden and Finland decided to give up neutrality completely and Join NATO.

    Funny cos the CoDF process never mentioned it either. To be fair, it was written before the invasion, but still highlighted our immediate military weakness. We are still preparing our defence force for a Pre Feb 2022 world. Those responsible for implementing this seem to be ignoring the fact that since the release of the Plan:

    Russia Invaded Ukraine, the West, including Ireland came to support Ukraine, both by providing military and humanitarian aid.

    Before it did, Its Navy tried to hold a Missile launching exercise in the Irish EEZ.

    It was behind a cyber attack on the HSE's IT system

    We have at least 2 MEPs who have been compromised by Russia, and can no longer be trusted to operate in Ireland's best interests.

    Russia sees us as supporting Ukraine and therefore Russia's enemy (even if we choose not to supply Ukraine with Military Aid-Everyone knows where those Green pajeros without the Alloy wheels came from)

    Ireland again was unable to repatriate its citizens without the help of another nations Air Force, once the fighting escalated in Sudan.

    The Strength of the Defence forces has reduced by 25% since 2013. Those needed most are the ones leaving first. The trainers, the leaders, the technicians.

    CODF was the dinner menu. They spent more time colouring it in than they needed to but the contents were what we wanted to see. We all saw the starters, Main Course and dessert. All the neighbouring tables have been served, Some of the mains are already off the menu because others got there first. We are still asking the waiter for more bread sticks while we decide if we want soup or not. (PBP recons we will do fine if we just get a plate of side orders to share, and forgo starter, main and dessert. They have ordered the wine though.) We could have dined from the same menu for much cheaper on the early bird, but we are far too late for that now. Kitchen closes in an Hour.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Going by the doom & Gloom in the examiner the committe can take all the they need as there will not be much of a defence forces left very shorty




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭sparky42


    The portal for public submissions on the forum is open if anyone wants to vent:

    https://www.gov.ie/en/consultation/1a35a-public-consultation-on-international-security-policy/



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Not anything new in this really, but given our low level of engagement with everything else we have signed on to not sure how much difference it would make with our current attitudes:

    https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2023/0601/1386893-ireland-pesco/



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,177 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    'Ireland is to consider ignoring NATO military assets in its territorial waters, airspace and EEZ as it solves a problem it cannot and does not want to address itself.'

    Fixed the auld headline for you RTÉ.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    AGS should make an offer to the PSNI for the helicopter they are going to ground if it was going cheap




  • Registered Users Posts: 24,177 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    A) We haven't got the crew for it

    B) The Chief Constable is only ball hopping so his budget doesn't get cut so hard

    C) Its embarrassing that a jurisdiction one third the size and population of the Republic has 50% more police helicopterage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 240 ✭✭mupper2


    Make of this what you will...

    "The Defence Forces have plans to acquire new ground based air defence radars and associated missile effector systems as recommended in the Defence Forces Commission report, while the upgrading of its 105mm light guns will future-proof the weapons out until 2035, he said"


    https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2023/06/01/ukraine-war-highlights-importance-of-artillery-support-against-drones-says-defence-forces-chief/



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Is the point of the 105s just for training purposes as we have never brought them overseas. We have only ever broughy our mortarsand not field guns



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,177 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Thats behind a paywall for me. I presume the bit about the 105s is completely unrelated to drone threats?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Its just an upgrade to keep them working. The section about it is below

    The Defence Forces have plans to acquire new ground based air defence radars and associated missile effector systems as recommended in the Defence Forces Commission report, while the upgrading of its 105mm light guns will future-proof the weapons out until 2035, he said



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,470 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    DFCoS trying to motivate the drop shorts on the corps centenary. When he says "upgrade" does he mean "repair"? I see Ukraine got gifted some 105 Light guns from the UK also, however their usefulness in that situation is hard to see.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Fairly sure they have been used well by the Ukrainians, there have been videos of tagged 105s on social media, though what the survival rates were and whether it was just another "this is all we have so we have to use it" situations are other questions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭sparky42


    The RTÉ discussion on Claire Byrne between John O Brennan and RBB…

    Take a guess as to who is talking utter bollocks.

    https://www.rte.ie/radio/radio1/clips/22258746/



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭sparky42


    I have to say, can't think of anytime when defence has had so much attention by Irish Media, the IT has an article on RAF Lossiemouth and the coverage it gives us, one interesting bit in it is highlight that Atlantic Aviation Group has one of the engineering contracts for the RAF A400s.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/world/uk/2023/06/03/raf-lossiemouth-the-british-military-airbase-that-protects-irish-skies/



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,177 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Anything that shines the shame lamp the Government parties is no harm.

    I imagine Varadkar felt a little of it too, at the European Political Community summit in Moldova this week.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭sparky42


    At the very least I hope some awkward questions were asked, seems beyond a doubt that will be the only way anything might change.

    Speaking of which:

    https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/taoiseach-and-tanaiste-stress-need-for-cooperation-on-subsea-cables-1484343.html



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,177 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Again, more spin on the reality that we are completely impotent.

    But yeah, awkward questions no doubt, and all in the presence of some proper ballsy leaders like Zelensky and Maia Sandu and in the afterglow of radical policy changes by Sweden and Finland.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Speaking of awkward questions, here's a new article from RUSI, pretty much everything we know in terms of our limitations, and the unwillingness to change, but interestingly the author suggests sources in Dublin saying an attempt was made to engage with France in relation to an air policing agreement. The French turned us down and told us to go talk to London, but still when was this floated? Given the distance was someone suggesting the French base here?

    https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/irish-airspace-and-waters-remain-europes-open-flank



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,177 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    "Ireland, the second richest Country in the EU...."

    Ambulance for Varadkar and Martin please, they've received a burn.

    On the air policing mission suggestion, I'd say it was some idea tossed around in the back channels and Cathal Berry's name is never far from any such notions, but it was probably fairly recent and always a complete non-starter.

    An air policing mission, as I understand it, would be along the lines of what we see from the big NATO air forces basing complete air components in the Balkans and the western Black Sea.

    Undoubtedly it would be politically impossible to base RAF warplanes in the Republic and frankly I don't think any other NATO air force would get a much warmer welcome from our tankie friends, so long as our formal defence and security policy is stuck in so many shades of grey.

    Our best bet, as alluded to in the article, is to get a modern surveillance system up and running asap, including our ships and maritime patrol aircraft and begin the bi-lateral exchange of information and intelligence with our wider neighbourhood; Britain, France, Iceland, Norway, Spain, Portugal, the US and Canada. They are the nations with the assets and the networks to physically against threats and if we can support that at least, we'll be a sight better off that we are now.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Not sure if thats more of a dig about our defence spending, or the inflated gdp in the first place?



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