Taxis not accepting card payment

02-06-2023 11:15am #1

Since Sept last year all taxis are required to accept card payments but many still refuse to do so.

The NTA are now cracking down on this. A recent sting operation in Galway saw 20 drivers issued with on-the-spot fines by the NTA. Hopefully this is the first on many such operations. Its silly that drivers are refusing to do this

https://connachttribune.ie/sting-on-galway-city-taxi-drivers-refusing-card-payment/

apache · 02-06-2023 11:18am

They shouldn't. I've had drivers taking ages and aren't happy when I pay by card but tough. Recently I wasn't charged as he couldn't get the machine working. Again not my problem.

callaway92 · 02-06-2023 11:27am

Ya it's a funny one - You can often audibly hear the moan/groan when you say you want to pay by card. And my God they'll take their time getting the machine thing out to take the payment.

gaming_needs90 · 02-06-2023 11:32am

I find it great! I have had a few "free" fares already where I say all I have is card. This not accepting of card is especially bad at night time. I guess they have to learn the hard way.

Xterminator · 02-06-2023 1:56pm

you do know they keep 100% of the cash fare but lose a % of the card fares to charges. Can understand if they have strong preference for anything but card.

you do occasionally need to out yourself in the other persons shoes, yeah?

02-06-2023 1:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120670498#Comment_120670498

That was taken into account with the last revision of fares to account exactly for that

Retr0gamer · 02-06-2023 1:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120670498#Comment_120670498

Would that % be tax like every honest person has to pay? That's a them problem, not a me problem if they want to avoid tax.

Vic_08 · 02-06-2023 2:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120670516#Comment_120670516

% taken by the card machine provider/app, fare otherwise not declared to revenue, default assumption they will keep the full €20 no matter what the actual fare is.

hynesie08 · 02-06-2023 4:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120670498#Comment_120670498

https://help.sumup.com/en-IE/articles/4oI3qHHji2I2S9dyvRfec3-pricing-fees

1.7%, that's less than 35c on a 20 euro fair.

If you're running that tight a margin, you're in the wrong business, probably the same lads who never have change handy, game could use less of them tbh.

Breezer · 02-06-2023 9:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120670993#Comment_120670993

As opposed to the 15% cut that Free Now takes AFAIK. And then of course there’s the risk of carrying cash.

It’s 2023.

(Not targeting that at you hynesie08, more so agreeing with you.)

hynesie08 · 02-06-2023 10:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120672098#Comment_120672098

Freenow is a necessary evil in Dublin, mainly for account work (not in the industry but several close friends are) and the reality is people aren't sticking the hands out as much anymore, 85% of 200 is better than 100% of 100.

But it's 2023, not having a sumup and a revolut account is utter stupidity.

Strumms · 02-06-2023 10:56pm

Maybe the Connacht tribune might like to inform their readership what the actual fine is !

another media source says the fine is 200 euros. Not exactly a huge deterrent.

sgthighway · 03-06-2023 8:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120672263#Comment_120672263

Nearly sure the paper did say it was 200.

I wonder did they offer to pay the fine by card.

bk · 03-06-2023 10:03am

“Freenow is a necessary evil in Dublin, mainly for account work (not in the industry but several close friends are) and the reality is people aren't sticking the hands out as much anymore, 85% of 200 is better than 100% of 100.”

Ive been saying this for years, this is a complete own goal by taxi drivers (not the only one, see deregulation).

Most people don’t carry cash anymore, many just use card for everything now. But for years taxi drivers resisted card machines, many people were forced to carry some cash as “taxi money” my friends would call it and we were all hated it.

And then along came Free now and the other apps and we all loved it, no having to worry if we have enough cash with us, the app takes care of all that. I know I and most of my friends would go out of our way to use the apps even when it would be just as convenient to wave down a taxi. Many of us have been conditioned not too wave down taxis, but use the app instead!

So instead of just losing 1.7% of a fare to SumUp, etc., they instead are losing 15% to free now, etc.

It really couldn’t be more dumb.

Of course there are other reasons to use the apps, ordering a taxi if you aren’t near a busy road with passing taxis, business accounts, certain level of safety. But honestly one of the biggest drivers of the early adoption of these apps was not having to pay by cash.

Spook_ie · 04-06-2023 3:29pm

FreeNow and pros and cons

I have an aversion to Free Now customers who order a taxi on the app and have it set as a cash fare ( presumably this is their way to avoid paying FreeNows €1 technology fee ) and then proceed to want to pay me by card.

I am already paying 15% to FreeNow to service your request so don't be an arse and expect me to stand your card fees as well

I have emailed free now and asked them if there is any way to either ensure that customers who say cash are actually cash or otherwise NOT to put cash calls through to me

Peregrine · 06-06-2023 1:32am

Late last year, I reported a driver for refusing to take me after rolling down the window and asking if I had cash. I filled out the online form and got a call from the NTA a couple of days later saying driver will be fined €200. It was very easy. Report it every time.

veryangryman · 07-06-2023 8:20am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120676897#Comment_120676897

Thanks i never knew of this idea. I will be doing it in future.

Spook_ie · 07-06-2023 4:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120685146#Comment_120685146

Not in my taxi you won't. I accept a FreeNow cash call I now expect to be paid in cash.

micks_address · 07-06-2023 4:27pm

used to be a pain in the hole at dublin airport.. think they changed the rule that new taxi's from some year had to take card payments.. used to annoy me for business travel as i would be asked to always use my card for expenses but then id arrive home at 6am in the morning and no taxi would take a card.. thankfully seems much better these days.. was embarrassing really

coolbeans · 07-06-2023 4:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120687108#Comment_120687108

I'm not understanding, do you take cards?

07-06-2023 6:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120687108#Comment_120687108

Afaik the position of the taxi regulator is you can expect whatever you want, but the choice of payment method is up to the passenger

Spook_ie · 07-06-2023 9:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120687131#Comment_120687131

I do but I'm averse to paying 2 lots of commission on a fare. You book a taxi under a cash option I expect to be paid in cash.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120687464#Comment_120687464

The fare has been booked and taken under the description "cash" I expect cash and would contest it with the taxi regulator.

fullstop · 07-06-2023 9:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120670498#Comment_120670498

They lose a % of card payments to the tax man as well…that’s the bit they don’t like 😉

coolbeans · 07-06-2023 9:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120688221#Comment_120688221

Seems fair enough.

08-06-2023 6:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120688221#Comment_120688221

I'm pretty sure the regulator will say the customer can pay by whatever means they choose.

Xterminator · 08-06-2023 9:21am

i dont think anyone (non taxi driver) suggested customers couldn't used a card. that's the sole reason free now has grown as it has in Ireland, because taxi drivers didn't embrace the customer needs sooner.

But it is fair for a taxi driver not to be overwhelmed with joy either - as per the comment Ya it's a funny one - You can often audibly hear the moan/groan when you say you want to pay by card. They have good reason too. The card charges comes directly out if their pocket. I dont feel guilty paying by card. But i can understand their POV.

08-06-2023 9:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689318#Comment_120689318

The card charges comes directly out if their pocket.

They were given a 1% increase in ALL fares to cover the charge

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/guidelines-for-the-acceptance-of-cashless-payments-in-taxis/

On 17 June last, the NTA Board approved the Small Public Service Vehicle (Cashless Payment Facility) Regulations in addition the increase of the National Maximum Taxi Fare by 12% weighted across popular journeys and the Premium and Standard Rates.

The revised fare includesa 1% increase for the costs associated with providing a Cashless Payment Facility. The cashless payment facility regulations make it mandatory for all taxis to have an in-taxi point of sale cashless payment terminal and for cashless payments to be accepted for taxi journeys when requested by customers.

As for what the driver wants customers to pay by, the driver has zero option as per the regulation. The customer chooses the payment method, end of. A customer can hop in and say cash, and at the end of the journey say cashless. Whether that is conveyed verbally or through an app it makes zero difference, if a customer chooses to pay cashless, then its the customers choice to do so

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2022/si/294/

Now, as they are oft inclined to do, taxi drivers can holler and wail at the injustice of it all, but it makes not a jot of difference, any driver not complying is subject to 200 eur fines.

With any luck the fact that 20 drivers in Galway all got hit with said fines should be a shot across the bow and maybe drive higher compliance

Spook_ie · 08-06-2023 5:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120688832#Comment_120688832

I'm sure they would as long as the customer hasn't booked a taxi under the pretext of paying cash.

ebbsy · 08-06-2023 5:35pm

I took a taxi to Ringsend the other day and the card machine could not get coverage. I popped into Spar and withdrew cash for him.

Not the first time it has happened to me however.

Lucky for him I was near a cash machine, what would the actual situation be if I was not ?

08-06-2023 5:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120691664#Comment_120691664

See my follow up post above. Its pretty clear, the taxi driver has zero say in how a customer pays and any attempt to dissuade from using cashless is open to fines of 200 eur

2 fines are actually related to this

200 eur fine for "Failure to carry a functioning cashless payment device"
200 eur fine for "Failure to accept cashless payment"

The statute also states cashless can be used for any fare and does not distinguish in any way.

As I said, they can moan all they want, but they have little choice in the matter and they have already been compensated

bk · 08-06-2023 5:54pm

"Lucky for him I was near a cash machine, what would the actual situation be if I was not ?"

Step 1 would be for the driver to get out of the taxi and try again, the metal of a car can block weak mobile signals.

Step 2, the driver could drive a little bit down the road and try again. Just moving a short distance can often get you a signal.

Step 3 if non of the above work, you get a free ride. It isn't on you if their equipment isn't working.

cullenswood · 08-06-2023 6:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120691797#Comment_120691797

Is step 3 definitely the case?

Would be a lot of free rides if it was

Spook_ie · 08-06-2023 7:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120691727#Comment_120691727

You have contracted to pay a cash fare, I suspect the law of contract would trump it. But it's irrelevent as if I get sent cash fares now from the app I just cancel them. No way am I paying 15% of the fare to FreeNow and then taking the hit for card fees on top

Spook_ie · 08-06-2023 7:59pm

Date of Introduction and Scope All SPSV drivers in Ireland are permitted to accept cashless payments, as well as cash, but only some are legally obliged to do so. From 01 September 2022, all taxi drivers licenced in Ireland must be equipped with a physical device/terminal to accept cashless payments. These guidelines relate to the provision of facilities for cashless payments by those taxi drivers;

the guidelines do not relate to cashless payments in other SPSVs (e.g. hackneys or limousines), which are provided at the discretion of the vehicle's operator. Nor do they relate to invoiced accounts held with operators or payments within booking service apps subscribed to by passengers.

These guidelines and the Regulations under which they are written relate to a physical, in-taxi, point of sale card payment process where a passenger uses a credit or debit card (physical or virtually stored in a digital wallet) to pay for a taxi journey.

Extract from NTA's guidelines

08-06-2023 8:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120692279#Comment_120692279

Nor do they relate to invoiced accounts held with operators or payments within booking service apps subscribed to by passengers.

By selecting cash in the likes of Freenow means the payment is no longer "within booking service apps" ergo xash/cashless is at the discretion of the passenger

By all means refuse payment and argue your position with the NTA. The requirements in the SI are pretty clear. My guess is you'd be on the receiving end of a 200 eur fine

Spook_ie · 08-06-2023 9:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120692387#Comment_120692387

Which bit of

payments within booking service apps subscribed to by passengers.

Do you think doesn't apply to FreeNow booking services and if it doesn't apply to FreeNow bookings why would I still be subject to a 15% charge to service the taxi request.

You're barking up the wrong tree

L1011 · 08-06-2023 10:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120692745#Comment_120692745

Because the selection of cash has very, very clearly removed the payment from "within" the "booking service app"

Spook_ie · 08-06-2023 10:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120692777#Comment_120692777

No it hasn't, the job is still via the booking app

08-06-2023 10:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120692786#Comment_120692786

But the payment is not

08-06-2023 10:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120692745#Comment_120692745

Also the 15% charge is between you and freenow. Has nothing to do with the passenger. If you have an issue with it you are free now to no longer use freenow

road_high · 08-06-2023 10:58pm

Another reason why I loathe taxis. I’ve no aversion to cash but people should just have the choice. I’ve zero interest in listening to some stroppy arsehole moaning. Taxis are already very expensive as it is

L1011 · 09-06-2023 6:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120692786#Comment_120692786

Do you understand the word "payment"?

Spook_ie · 09-06-2023 10:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120693183#Comment_120693183

Do you understand the abreviated word "app" and when a job on the app is accepted and when it finishes?

Spook_ie · 09-06-2023 10:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120692873#Comment_120692873

I don't have an issue with paying a commision fee to an app provider, it's my choice to accept or decline an invitation to take a job, it is also my choice to accept a job invitation and to then cancel doing the job if it says cash and I don't wish to present the customer with the choice of paying by cash or by card (incurring extra charges to myself)

I have no problem with customers off the street paying with cash or card.

ArmaniJeanss · 09-06-2023 10:26am

For what percentage of jobs booked as cash does the customer subsequently decide to pay by card? I'd suggest it's not likely to be that high a percentage and it's just one of those 'take the good with the bad' things we all have to put up with. It's up there with some nights your last job takes you to your own neighbourhood and other nights it takes you to the other side of the city. Sometimes your airport run is a rich Yank going to the Conrad, other times its a local family run to Donaghmede and they are scraping the fare from the bottom of their pockets.

FWIW, I don't see the customer is doing anything particularly wrong. Their only obligation is to pay the fare on the meter. I don't think the 'booking as cash' on the app is in any way binding and doubt the regulator would see it that way. To me it's akin to telling the Aldi operator I'll pay by cash, then changing to card when I realise I don't have enough cash. Annoying, they've to press the reset button on the till etc, but not a big deal.

L1011 · 09-06-2023 10:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120693854#Comment_120693854

I understand that when a job with no payment via the app is taken, that no payment within the app exists.

You, somehow, don't.

Spook_ie · 09-06-2023 10:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120693948#Comment_120693948

It's a high enough percentage for me to notice and decide to take action. As an estimate i would reckon that 50% of booked cash jobs now want to pay by card.

I also suspect that this has been caused in part by FreeNows €1 technology charge as there is no way for them to recover it from "cash" customers who then want to pay by card but not through the app.

09-06-2023 10:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120693854#Comment_120693854

The scope is the payment, not the method of booking

As I said, argue with the NTA and see what's they say

To me it's pretty clear

sugarman20 · 09-06-2023 10:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120694018#Comment_120694018

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't part of the issue related to the fact that some drivers will decline card jobs so customers put it down as cash just so the job will be accepted?