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Attempting to reduce magazine capacity allowances

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  • 02-06-2023 2:18pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 768 ✭✭✭


    Hi all

    Just wondering if anyone else has had problems with Gardaí attempting to reduce magazine capacity allowances below 10 rounds for rifles

    This and ammunition reductions something's not right.



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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,773 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    I agreed to an ammo reduction from 2000 rounds to 1000 rounds for one of my guns but fcuked if I'd be agreeing to lower any of my magazines to below 10 rounds (5 round pistol excluded, obviously).

    But to answer your question, the Gardai haven't asked me to do so.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,645 ✭✭✭Feisar


    They've been asking about the capacity but no mention of a reduction

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    In what sense? Noth being pedantic but there is no allowance for mags in the same sense as there is allowance for ammo limits. Any such cap on magazine capacity is done in law as the ammo limits have no legal basis and are solely a guide by the Commissioner.

    As for the mags capacity limits they are set out in law as follows.

    The law has a ban on any mags over 10 rounds for SA centrefire rifles, 20 rounds for centrefire pistols, and nothing for bolt action centrefire rifles.

    With rimfires it is a restricted license for anything over 10 rounds in rifle, 5 rounds with pistols. Nothing banned.

    For shotguns it's unrestricted for 3 or fewer and restricted for more than 3. Nothing banned

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  • Registered Users Posts: 768 ✭✭✭Uinseann_16


    Cass and in what sense I was issued a license that stated "maximum magazine capacity ..." which was lower than 10 on a mon restricted rifle.

    I've heard the same from a few in my district being maximum 3,5 etc

    I'm very aware of the law thanks to years of reading your fine posts ;)

    But this is an additional condition being added to the backside of the licence



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭alanmc


    I was talking to a nice lady in the Firearms Policy Unit about a reprint of a license one day and she went through all my licenses apparently updating the database with the mag capacities. I think she said something about it appearing on our licenses in the future. I may have got the wrong end of the stick on that last point though.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,773 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    The Gardai have no authority under the legislation to do that so I'd be explaining to them that as there's no basis in law for lowering the magazine capacity below what's written in the legislation, I'd politely be refusing their request.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Gardai,  under section 4(2)(g) of the Firearms Act 1925 as substituted by section 32 of the Criminal Justice Act 2006, have the authority to impose conditions on a license as they deem it necessary for the issuing of the license. However those conditions cannot be arbitrary, they must be based in some form of public safety, or relating to something the applicant declared in their FCA1.

    That being said if you have a printer reason on the back of your grant letter which states something along the lines of "cannot use a magazine of greater than *insert amount* rounds" then it would be legally binding , afaik.

    I however would not allow it to stand and would write in and request a written reason as to why a non legislative limit has been placed on the magazine and for what reason. They must show good reason for such a condition otherwise it could be challenged in court.

    As a cautionary note I would avoid breaching the limit until you get a resolution as it would make you in breach of the conditions of your license.

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    As above they do, technically.


    Section 4(2)(g) of the Firearms Act 1925 as substituted by section 32 of the Criminal Justice Act 2006:

    g) complies with such other conditions (if any) specified in the firearm certificate, including any such conditions to be complied with before a specified date as the issuing person considers necessary in the interests of public safety or security,

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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,773 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    It's clear that plugging magazines for pistols to achieve the 5 round capacity is legal but it's pretty unclear if there's permission to plug a rifle magazine in the same way.

    So, if my Super said 3 rounds in your Ruger 10/22, how do I achieve that, legally?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    You plug it.

    Not being a smart arse but what answer are you expecting? Difficulty doesn't enter into this discussion (on their end).

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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,773 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Yep, that's what I'd do. But we aren't certain if plugging a rifle magazine is legal or not as there's no specific S.I. for it (as there is for a pistol).

    I don't know the answer to this but it's possible you could be complying with the condition of your licence but also breaking the law at the same time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 290 ✭✭keith s


    My latest licence has the mag capacity of 5 Plus one up the spout, so it says "maximum ammunition /rounds capacity of 6".



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    The pistols SI of 2015 clarified the position of pistol mags because before that the law simply said magazine with a capacity not exceeding 5 rounds. So plugging was used as it wasn't prohibited.

    Of course don't confuse not mentioned with being legal but the rifle situation would be the same. Plugging would be legal as it's not specifically mentioned and the only restricted is the 10 round one which turns it from unrestricted to restricted which unlike pistols can be licensed still.

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


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  • Registered Users Posts: 233 ✭✭cosieman


    No magazine capacity is 5 legally so that is fine unless it is a revolver than 6 shots is not allowed



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    I understand the legality of as I outlined the law a couple of posts above, but my query was aimed more specifically @keith s as , and perhaps I'm reading this wrong, his license grant letter clarifies this issue, albeit a grant letter is no substitute for law or a court decision.

    We had this conversation many times over the years and the end result, it's still a grey area.

    Some believe it's 5 only, nothing in the chamber.

    Some believe it's 5 in the mag and the one in the chamber doesn't count as the law only deals with mag capacity.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 880 ✭✭✭Wadi14


    On my last .22 rifle renewal, I was asked what was my magazine capacity, I have 5 round magazines so when my license was renewed it came out with a limit of 5 rounds on the back of the license, when I questioned this with the FO, I was told that if I wanted to buy a 10 round magazine inform them and they will reprint my license.



  • Registered Users Posts: 290 ✭✭keith s


    I was asked what is the maximum it can hold, including the mag capacity and if one could also be loaded in the breach as well (so total possible capacity. Apparently this question (obviously in better wording than mine) will be on the new application forms!

    For clarity this is a rifle not a pistol and it is stated on the license not the grant letter.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    That clears up a lot.

    Not a pistol so no issues there.

    It's a case of them listing your maximum capacity on the license rather than making it a condition on the grant.

    Thanks for that.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 937 ✭✭✭freddieot


    I thought that legally only conditions on the cert itself were valid.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    There is nothing in law about where the conditions must be listed. The act, afaik, only talks about conditions that must be met or adhered to prior to or during the licensing of the firearm, but yes I'd agree with you that the conditions would be listed on the grant as there is more room but also so the licensee can acknowledge them prior to paying and receiving the actual license.

    I still believe though, that the "conditions" listed on a license are more a statement of fact and that if the grant doesn't have them then they're not conditions at all.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 418 ✭✭tomtucker81


    I was asked when renewing how many rounds I can hold in the rifle. Said I had a 5 round magazine so 6 in total I suppose, with one loaded and a full mag under it.

    No condition about this was mentioned on the letter or the licence when renewed but I was surprised to be asked this.

    Doesn't make much sense to me as even if I was told only 5 rounds in a magazine, I can still carry the rest of my ammo on me.



  • Registered Users Posts: 937 ✭✭✭freddieot


    However, there seems a lack of continuity, never always ideal in these situations.

    Interesting if someone was told to have CCTV installed before being given a restricted licence, just as an example. Would that requirement be then still legally valid if not included on the grant letter or the licence. It would be a condition beyond the morm and not listed anywhere. My feeling would be that if not listed on the grant letter at least then it would have no standing, even if AGS had insisted on it in writing. My point is that the grant letter or perhaps even just the cert becomes the requirement.

    On another point, my latest grant letter states .. subject to the following conditions.. and then just asks for 80 quid. Also, there is nowhere for a person to acknowledge the conditions before paying the fee such as you would have with a tick box in a totally on line situation. That in itself should surely suggest that any conditions should be on the actual cert. If not enough space to elaborate then there should be some reference to a condition. It would be a different scenario if we had to go on line, acknowledge the conditions and then pay, in order to proceed with the cert.



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,284 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    It sounds like to me they are recording the capacity of the firearm applied for rather than limiting magazines.

    eg somebody applies for a single shot the license might say “Capacity: 1 round”. That’s very different to telling someone applying for a 5 shot rifle that they are approve but have to modify it to be single shot



  • Registered Users Posts: 937 ✭✭✭freddieot


    I think that's probably the case. There may not be a facility to record the mag capacity in a separate field in Pulse, I don't know. That could be why it's appearing now on the certs. Effectively just a more detailed description of the firearm. Nothing more sinister than that.

    However, if someone gets licensed and cert says a Remington 700 with 5 round capacity, I'd be concerned that by inference the same rifle might be unlicensed if the owner put in a 10 round as then it would not match the specific description on the cert. Like a lot of these administrative issues, not important at all, until it is..and then you have a legal eagle saying silence is agreement..



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,284 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Agreed. I'm fine with a more detail description being entered on the system. But not with that description being tied to the grant of license.

    Say if the system includes that a firearm is "black". Does changing to a FDE polymer stock invalidate the license. Of course not. The solution for now, would be to state the higher capacity of mags availible.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    @freddieot Interesting if someone was told to have CCTV installed before being given a restricted licence, just as an example. Would that requirement be then still legally valid if not included on the grant letter or the licence. It would be a condition beyond the morm and not listed anywhere


    Not the same thing,imo and it is "listed".

    Secure storage SI lists the minimum standards. I've said this many times over the years that the word minimum in the SI means a Super/Chief Super can impose any level of security they deem necessary before granting the license regardless of the type/number of firearms.

    As storage is a prerequisite before the granting of a license, it's not a condition of use of the firearm in terms of mag limits, ammo limit, etc. In other words the secure storage must be in place before applying.

    So in short, yes it would be legally valid before, during and after any granting of a license, separate to the actual conditions pertaining to the use of the license as outlined in the grant letter.

    Again just my opinion.

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    @freddieot Effectively just a more detailed description of the firearm. Nothing more sinister than that


    As said above, I'd agree with that.

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    @Mellor The solution for now, would be to state the higher capacity of mags availible.

    That is what I would be doing.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 183 ✭✭TheEngineer1


    I was issued a license for a rimfire rifle recently, it says on the back of the license "maximum ammunition/rounds capacity of 10". I have 2 five round mags and a ten round mag for it. Can I use the ten round mag as I could theoretically have 10 in the mag and one in the chamber?



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