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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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    #23012
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,449 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120675100#Comment_120675100

    Prendergast has the potential to be a starting player for the national team, Haley doesn't.



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    #23013
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,420 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120675153#Comment_120675153

    I knew it.



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    #23014
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,420 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120675153#Comment_120675153

    Sam is behind

    Sexton

    Ross Byrne

    Crowley

    Harry Byrne

    Frawley

    Carty

    Carbery

    Billy Byrnes.......


    Yet he is a legitimate squad inclusion

    While Haley is the undisputed 2nd choice 15 in the country....



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    #23015
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,449 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120675240#Comment_120675240

    you think he's the undisputed no.2, when A. clearly JOB is, and B. it's likely that Frawley and Osbourne are and will be ahead of him too. How many different ways can it be explained to you why Haley isn't included? Bizarre hill to die on.



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    #23016
    Jump_In_Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    The only way I can make sense out of not including Haley is that they want to stress test the squad, and if for example Keenan broke his leg, they might actually bring Haley straight in at fullback.

    Otherwise they really like O’Brien as a fullback and would be willing to use Crowley or Hansen instead if they needed.

    I don’t think Frawley will make the 33 man squad, and I don’t think Osborne/Earls would be trusted.



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    #23017
    ulsteru20s
    Registered Users Posts: 2,544 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120675284#Comment_120675284

    Frawley and Osbourne ahead as 15s is puzzling.. come on.

    Also, does Prendegast even have it athletically? Can i see him play some more games against full adults before we anoint him?



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    #23018
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120674344#Comment_120674344

    The exact same argument had been made on here for starting 15 / 23 / squad tho, is my point.

    I just think it’s too reductive. You’re right until you’re not. But it leaves no room for discussion prior to that.



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    #23019
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120675324#Comment_120675324

    The facts are pretty plain. It’s not being reductive. Kleyn and Haley got a look in under Joe. Neither have under Farrell. There is a reason for that. Them being left out for this squad shouldn’t be a surprise. It’s a continuation of 3 1/2 years of selection policy. Do you think they haven’t watched Haley or Kleyn play in that time?



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    #23020
    Former Former Former
    Registered Users Posts: 5,984 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120675100#Comment_120675100

    Ah this is a horrible post. Genuinely awful.

    I'd have been grand with Haley being called up and no one mentioned Prendergast at all.

    Haley isn't hard done by. He's one of about 20 players who might have been in the mix but can't really complain about missing out. He's just not that good, so why are we discussing him at such great length?

    Post edited by Former Former Former on


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    #23021
    Dubinusa
    Registered Users Posts: 8,561 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120675240#Comment_120675240

    How is Haley undisputed 2nd choice? Is this your opinion?



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    #23022
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120675334#Comment_120675334

    Do you think they haven’t watched Haley or Kleyn play in that time?

    If you really think that’s the point I’m making, I don’t see much point in continuing this tbh. 

    But if you apply all of that to Joey Carbery, you could get an equally dismissive post circa January this year:

    The facts are pretty plain. It’s not being reductive. Carbery has been continually selected under Farrell. There is a reason for that. Him being included in this squad shouldn’t be a surprise. It’s a continuation of 3 years of selection policy. Do you think they haven’t watched alternatives play in that time?



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    #23023
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120675657#Comment_120675657

    No it’s not the same, dropping out of a squad is not the same as breaking into it. Better alternatives have come along.

    The simple fact is Kleyn and Haley are too limited as players. That’s why they aren’t included. In different ways in both instances. They both play very well for Munster in ways that suits Munster but doesn’t suit Ireland.

    Kleyn has improved his ball handling but it’s still not anywhere near Irish standards and there are far better ball handling locks there. Thus why Moloney has been selected. The rest of his game will never make up for that it’s simply not that good. Haley is brilliant under the high ball and great at running it back. His kicking game isn’t good enough though compared to the other options. Also he is limited to one position which is a luxury option. Even before Keenan emerged, when we were really struggling, Haley wasn’t considered by Farrell and Catt as a live option.

    We all see things as fans of our provinces but that inevitably clouds our judgements on players.



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    #23024
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120675784#Comment_120675784

    Better alternatives have come along.

    Well, exactly. But you could’ve applied your argument to anyone calling for their selection prior to it

    And also… my judgement is clouded but yours is crystal clear? I think I’ll leave it at that…



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    #23025
    Former Former Former
    Registered Users Posts: 5,984 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120675791#Comment_120675791

    I think his point is exactly the opposite, that his judgement could be just as clouded.

    The only opinion that a) really matters and b) isn't clouded by provincial bias is that of the Ireland coach, so it's not really reductive to use it as a measure of where a player really stands.

    Anyone who hadn't featured in squads up to the Six Nations was always going to struggle to force their way in. There just isn't enough time left to really assess the international prospects of a guy you're seeing for the first time.



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    #23026
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120675791#Comment_120675791

    I didn’t say your judgement, I said ours collectively but if you want to try and lower the debate to that level, to seek offense. Then it’s probably best that you do.

    I note though that you choose to ignore the substantive points.



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    #23027
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,316 ✭✭✭✭phog


    The chat a few weeks ago was that the knockout stages could be an opportunity for players to play themselves in/out of the squad. Not that those knockout games are over the mantra seems to be you can't change a settled squad.

    It almost seems like the wrong players impressed



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    #23028
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120675827#Comment_120675827

    Fair enough, misunderstanding then.

    I still stand by my point about the better alternatives tho.

    They were establishing themselves as better alternatives and then Farrell selected them.

    Your argument doesn’t give any room for discussion prior to that.

    But happy to leave it at that… (and fwiw, I’d disagree with some of your points with regards Kleyn and Haley).



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    #23029
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    Ah nothing like a good World Cup squad selection to get all the conspiracy theorists out.

    The big question about those advocating for certain players’ inclusions is who do you take out, and what will the benefit be of including said player and what will be the benefit of removing another.

    The only argument I’ve seen so far that I think is legitimate is Dave Kilcoyne. I believe Loughman should be in the squad ahead of him but, if I’m honest, that’s the only one.



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    #23030
    Former Former Former
    Registered Users Posts: 5,984 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Also worth noting that lots of players impressed in the knockouts.

    Connacht won at Ravenhill and gave a decent account of themselves in Cape Town. Leinster disposed of Ulster, Leicester, Toulouse and the Sharks.

    Only Ulster really failed to do anything of note and you could say that's reflected in the squad.

    And really, an honest appraisal of the knockouts would have to include Munster shipping 50 points to the Sharks. If Andy Farrell was watching that, as he definitely was, a fair few lads would been set back.



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    #23031
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120675856#Comment_120675856

    I’d have Kleyn comfortably ahead of Treadwell.

    Treadwell has credit in the bank from NZ but I think Kleyn has been in significantly better form.

    (None of which is a conspiracy theory).



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    #23032
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,316 ✭✭✭✭phog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120675856#Comment_120675856

    It's a squad, you don't have to take anyone out at the moment.

    It's all about learning the system.



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    #23033
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Meh, people take this all far too personally.

    The squad that won the six nations is proven and quite settled at this point. We had tough games but won all of them fairly convincingly in the end. The continuity from that is quite significant and making changes would be difficult as it trades the certain for the slightly uncertain. There may be instances where those trade offs are seen as worth it but it's not really all that surprising a 42. Do I think it's the best 42 players available? No. Is it the best squad to create a winning environment for the Rugby World Cup? Andy Farrell thinks so.

    I'm fairly convinced there are players in that 42 that are there more for the benefit of the 33 that will go to France than because they are likely to get there themselves but that's speculation on my part. I see nothing so contentious as to generate any kind of heated debate, but make no mistake I am taking notes for the next interpro build up thread. 👀



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    #23034
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,420 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120675891#Comment_120675891

    Exactly. My point was only that players can get injured at any time, and it's a gamble to presume that the likes of Keenan and JVDF will be fit come the start of the RWC in September when there are like for like replacements who could be brought in to become familiar with the system and the other players

    A 45 man squad with an extra out half, extra specialist 7 and extra specialist 15 who won't make the 33 unless they either perform spectacularly in camp, or there's an injury to the incumbent player

    All of that is preferable to relying on a utility back or forward, or even worse, Frawley bring the reserve 10 if something happens to sexton and Byrne/Crowley



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    #23035
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,449 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Did I miss an injury crisis for JDF and Keenan? If that's the concern, then JOB will have plenty of time to get to to speed with the position



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    #23036
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,316 ✭✭✭✭phog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120675937#Comment_120675937

    Is the RWC squad the exact same as the 6Ns Squad?

    Will the RWC squad face different opposition to the 6Ns squad?

    Change happens and will happen again before Ireland play their first pool game in the RWC

    All I'm saying and I think most others who are arguing for the inclusion of the likes of Kleyn and Haley is

    A) They're worth their place

    B) it's include them in a squad and not actually remove anyone do it's not a cost of player X or Y

    C) This should probably have happened before now

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


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    #23037
    RichieRich_89
    Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    Haley wasn't exactly playing badly for the last 2 or 3 years. If Farrell wanted him he'd have picked him long before now.



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    #23038
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,316 ✭✭✭✭phog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120676061#Comment_120676061

    This true but he has improved on how good he was to being even better, hence, he is now No2 in Ireland

    Before anyone gets their underwear in a knot, I know, he has people ahead of him in the squad but they're there because of their versatility.



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    #23039
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,449 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120676054#Comment_120676054

    Would they be any more valuable than having Murray, Loughman, Milne, Balacoune or Larmour in the camp? Equal arguments could be made for all of them.



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    #23040
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,316 ✭✭✭✭phog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120676487#Comment_120676487

    Even if you think there are equal arguments to add them and then add them then that's only 7 more players in total.


    Hardly the end of the world



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    #23041
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120676054#Comment_120676054

    Is the RWC squad the exact same as the 6Ns Squad?

    The squad will have forced and unforced changes - I'm not suggesting otherwise. I think the first choice 15 all but picks itself, I think the first choice bench all but picks itself. From a time investment point of view - that's where the coaches are going to sink the bulk of their efforts.

    The wider squad simply has to offer a certain degree of flexibility / utility or have to add sufficiently to the overall group to be included.

    Will the RWC squad face different opposition to the 6Ns squad?

    Yes, and that raises an important point - probably the best thing Farrell has done with this Irish team and what really sets him apart from Schmidt is that we're incredibly aggressive in imposing our gameplan, whoever the opposition. We can play cagey, counter punching rugby, but we can also play world class attacking rugby to compliment our impressive defence.

    Aside from this, the core squad toppled South Africa and won a tour to NZ in the last year and players not around for any of that are in the unfortunate position of either having to offer up a myriad of reasons for inclusion - either through performance or the offer of utility.

    All I'm saying and I think most others who are arguing for the inclusion of the likes of Kleyn and Haley is

    A) They're worth their place

    B) it's include them in a squad and not actually remove anyone do it's not a cost of player X or Y

    C) This should probably have happened before now

    The problem with your thinking above is that it's based on the assumption that leaving them out to date has been a mistake. I highly rate both players but don't think either are best in position in Ireland. I think Kleyn is the more hard done by of the two by far for several reasons. He doesn't need the versatility required of a 'not first choice' back three. He has been one of the most consistent performers at club level for two seasons in the second row. He's incredibly hardy and has a good injury record. There are players in the squad who have higher ceilings than him, but are either consistently injured or are quite inexperienced and I would not have been entirely surprised had he been ahead of them but for one important factor. Kleyn has been good enough for long enough to be included and still hasn't gotten a look so even under C) above, should probably have happened before now, there was nothing stopping the coaches, other than whatever reason they've had to date. And Kleyn's game hasn't evolved so whatever that reason is must still be the deciding factor.

    As for Haley, he's a fine player but every other back that isn't a guaranteed starter can and has played in more than one position. He's lost out to Stockdale, JOB, Earls and Nash.



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