Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

12/15 are where most teams would play it. I think leinster broadly fall into that if they use one.

I’d say Ringrose is more of a runner than a distributor. I think that’s fair to say.

The second playmaker doesn't have to be a 12, they can easily be 13. Henry Slade for example is one of the best out there.

My impression is that he’s fine as long as its obviously scripted or a called play. 

Your impression is wrong.

I mean, he's no Mike Haley like, but he's by some distance our best 13, a world class player, and I'm not sure why we're even discussing him, let alone sh1tting all over him, other than to make inferior Munster players somehow look better.

Who said he wasn’t our best 13 or a world class player?

I swear to god some people can’t read.

You don’t have to be great at everything to be a world class player. This is also funny because i got pushback from a munster fan earlier for saying haley is also not a playmaker.

I’d say that reading the game in non scripted play and making the pass decision (which is what playmaking mostly is to me) is the weakest part of his game. I wouldn’t call him bad at it. But he is certainly not world class at that particular thing. So, yea ‘not trusting’ is prob too far. Its just not one of his strengths. Of which he has many.

By @ulsteru20s definition of playmaker, we'd need to be playing Crowley at 12 or something of that nature. It was a (perhaps unintended) straw man that grew out of the discussion on Haley's qualities, i.e., how he can offer a lot more in attack than, say, a Rob Kearney. And yes, JOB and a few other players could do likewise.

My concern, however, is that JOB (and not to pick on him, but I think it's fair to say he's next up at full back) is not strong enough in the fundamentals of full-back play. Nobody has responded to my request for big games where he really stood out at full-back. He had 40 minutes against 14 English players, where he held his own. And he was superb against Toulouse, but on the wing. Where else can we get a decent look at him?

No and no one is claiming that Ireland would win a RWC of they were included but there is middle ground here despite a few posters thinking otherwise.

I just don't think there's such a chasm between JOB and Haley to warrant the kind of reaction it's gotten. Both are good full backs, and Farrell appears to value JOB's pace, footballing ability and versatility more than what Haley offers. If he rated Haley, he'd have brought him into camp at least once in his 3 years as head coach (when Larmour, Stockdale, Keenan, Lowry and O'Brien have all been used at 15). Haley was also in camp in 2019 when Farrell was defence coach, so he would have seen him up close then too.

As for Kleyn. It's pretty obvious that Farrell likes forwards who are both athletic and skillfull, so going on that, it really isn't a big shock that Kleyn hasn't made it. I also think his form has been a bit exaggerated. Say he wasn't capped by Ireland in 2019, would the Springboks be rushing to get him into camp? I'd wager not.

Crowley/Frawley at 12/15.. JOB at 15… Frisch at 12/13.. harry byrne at 12… lowry at 15… stewart moore at 12.

All those options are obviously worse than the player who actually plays there.

There is this weird thing in the backs (unlike the forwards as much) where for a guy to be good they have do EVERYTHING. Almost no one does everything and usually playmaking is not the selection priority at 13.

How many south african second rows would make the ireland team is a better question than if Kleyn would make ours or theirs.

Snyman and etzebeth would start and beirne would play 6, right?

Maybe start Etzebeth, Ryan and have Snyman for punch off the bench.

You might disagree but it doesn't make you right, I think playmaking is widely understood to mean creative / decision making players in attack

You have now.

Pics?