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Abuse of Referees

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,146 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    I wouldnt call it an apprenticeship but up and coming officials should be involved more as umpires, 4th official to help.

    I know all about that structure with F Murphy. Some of the pro rugby refs have spoken to all the provincial branches/society about their working week on a few occasions before. they speak regularly with the 4 provincial refs groups about laws of game and other areas to improve.

    GAA refs at all levels dont meet up to discuss rules/game amangemment anywhere near enough..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,901 ✭✭✭✭Realt Dearg Sec


    That's ridiculous. Either we want to sort out the disrespect for refs or we don't, letting lads off on stupid technicalities like that is farcical. And you can't say you support refs if you then turn around and agree with the gaa leaving a ref out to dry when he actually stands up and demands respect, on the shaky ground that loads of other managers got away with it. People getting away with it is the problem, so you can't then oppose someone facing consequences.

    By that logic you could never start enforcing a rule, because in the past someone else got away with breaking the rule.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭Asdfgh2020


    Do managers/coaches/mentors who follow/stalk and mouth off to refs at half time as they leave the pitch ever get reported / disciplined…..Cody in particular was a bit fan of this tactic and don’t ever recall him getting a sideline ban….? Would love to know what they are trying to achieve other than turning the ref further against their team…?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,635 ✭✭✭✭greenspurs


    Its all about putting pressure on the ref. Frighten him enough that when theres a decision to be made you subconsciously will be pressured into giving it to the team of the lad/lads that harass you, or else they will be on your case again.....

    During my time reffing football, you knew when you got to some junior grounds that there would be a 'hostile' crowd (maybe 10-20) there just to appeal every decision you make, with the goal of influencing you in favour of your team..... And when you are inexperienced that can work, but when a ref is more experienced it tends to influence you less , and teams/supporters know by then if you are a strong (good) or weak (poor) ref...

    I remember one player who would be saying throughout the games i reffed him ..

    'youll give us a big decision, i know you will, you owe us one' ..... just while the game was going on, while passing each other...

    Didnt work for him though 😁

    "Bright lights and Thunder .................... " #NoPopcorn



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,811 ✭✭✭Eoinbmw


    I always found that if you got on a refs back they would blow harder against you!

    Some refs had a hatred for certain clubs due to abuse in the past and they already had their mind made up before the game to give yoh nothin, only human nature .

    When I look back now I don't blame them.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭Asdfgh2020


    old fashioned ‘bullying’ then is what you are saying which will have some impact on younger / inexperienced refs but is there not a rule/mechanism for a ref to report the ‘pr1cks’ who engage in this atrocious behaviour…….if there is a ‘rule’ then it’s obviously never applied……if it was applied then every second ref would be ending up in the ‘boot of a car’ every weekend😡



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,635 ✭✭✭✭greenspurs


    There is a rule/mechanism .....

    But its not always 'abuse' per se....

    I dont think shouting "AWWWW REF COME ON..... THATS A FREE...." is abuse?

    When i was in the middle i considered that an appeal for a foul - ignore and move on.... (same for all the other refs in our lge at the time)

    But add a few swear words into that, and repeated appealing, and then getting personal .. then you need to step in, have a word and deal with it , if and when required.

    But in our local schoolboy league, the refs are waiting for anyone on the sideline to appeal for a free, and then then get all aggressive and escalate the situation, confront/threaten the 'offender' , whilst ignoring whats happening on the pitch.. Very very maddening to see.

    "Bright lights and Thunder .................... " #NoPopcorn



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,309 ✭✭✭evolvingtipperary101


    Yeah, it's either that or nothing else. It simply can't be more complex than two options.

    Certainly could never have a situation where ambiguous language is used to protect a ref. Certainly not.

    And past consistency in relation to the enforcement of rules/decisions has no bearing case to case. Surely, couldn't?

    Was he left out to dry? Where was the drying?

    Looks well protected to me. 2023 - two years into the inter-county job and has been given the Leinster final this weekend? Hung out to dry? Looks well backed to me. And I celebrate that. It's the right decision and an important development going forward for refs. But I can also see a decision that's wrong. And so can the cccc - maybe, now, after experience...

    Nothing shaky about the grounds, there's already been two incidents of managers getting suspensions in the last two years. But only once in senior championship. And look at how that ref was treated because it was once again, from what I heard, the wrong decision but the cccc felt they had no choice but to publicly back the ref. Murphy, like a lot of refs, was leaking things to Fogarty because, like a lot of refs, they felt they had to get their side out to the public. But Murphy didn't get much after that until this season. The ref was ultimately punished. Now, maybe, just maybe, public language surrounding such cases and dealing with them, even if the ref is wrong or right, will be handled in an ambiguous manner. No wrong or right. No good or bad call. Contradiction... and rather than trying to punish the ref, they will support them to grow and learn from it. Because maybe, just maybe, the cccc have learned from it... and recent developments and voices of refs have been heard on this issue.

    But, listen, it can only be right or wrong, like? Or is that just how you want it to be?

    The public identity/image of refs in the GAA is in its infancy and it has a long way to go but this is a positive step forward - in that the situation was handled and the ref supported in the most important manner - not punished - but backed to grow and given a FINAL. Two years in and you can get a big final even if you've been... contradicted... I think this is a huge moment for refs. Protection and supported to grow.

    Took me a while to arrive to this perspective but refs need to be protected and need to grow. What happened to Johnny Murphy last year was wrong. He was backed publicly and then hung out to dry privately. Punished. Everyone could see he wasn't getting the games after it. But I think he is being backed more now. There's been a change in attitude/action...

    How do we back and protect refs in public and private in the GAA even when the decision is wrong is the ultimate question for the association going forward. Because it directly relates to attracting refs. That remains an ongoing learning process.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,309 ✭✭✭evolvingtipperary101


    There is a clear and obvious media drive to get refs image and voices as human out there at the moment. And also to get their interpretation of the rules out there. Long overdue. Fogarty in the Examiner:

    David Gough believes there was a lack of understanding of the black card/penalty rule that he applied in last Saturday’s All-Ireland SFC Group 1 game between Cork and Kerry in Páirc Uí Chaoimh.

    The Meath referee awarded Kerry a second-half penalty and sin-binned Seán Powter for his foul on Paul Geaney outside the small parallelogram as it denied a goal-scoring opportunity, as the rule stipulates.

    Gough said Cork manager John Cleary’s reaction towards him and in his post-match interviews demonstrated that he did not know the rule.

    Asked about the reaction, Gough said: “Ignorance in that there may have been a lack of knowledge or understanding of the rule. When I explained on the pitch to the Cork players what was happening they seem to go, 'Oh, okay'. And they were fine about it.

    “When I was walking off the pitch John Cleary was giving out to me that he said he had seen the incident back and it was outside the penalty box, that it was never a penalty. 

    "I then explained the situation to him and I'm listening to him on the radio going home and he's saying it was never a goalscoring opportunity. So even he didn't understand what was going on.

    “And it's a difficult one because players first of all weren't aware of the rule and second of all then people, pundits, media, managers didn't have a great understanding of the rule and the language of the goalscoring opportunity and what that actually constitutes. So that's why there was so much confusion about it.” 

    Gough revealed the decision was backed up as the right one in a referees meeting on Wednesday night. 

    “It has been discussed at the highest level last night among the elite referees on the national panel, and there was a unanimous decision made that it was 100% the correct decision. And I only got to see it once. I got to see it in real time. And we have a situation where you know, people are viewing this back 10 and 15 times and still can't arrive at the correct decision.” 

    And Wooly:

    Or


    'As a referee, you don't know who's going to hit you and abuse you' | DAVID GOUGH - YouTube



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,699 ✭✭✭Gusser09


    I think David needs to concentrate on the reffing and not his media personality. He always seems to be front and centre getting air time and face time. The fact that he was vindicated by Croke Park should have been enough for him.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,332 ✭✭✭keeponhurling


    I think having refs out in the media is a positive thing actually.

    Not only can they explain the rules to the many who don't actually know them, they can "humanise" the refs. Some of the apes can see that they are just people doing their bit, like everyone else.

    They wouldn't abuse anybody else like that in the lives, they seem to think referees are somehow different and fair game.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,699 ✭✭✭Gusser09


    I wouldn't disagree. I just think some court the spotlight more than others.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,738 ✭✭✭flasher0030


    I agree. Historically the refs are just in the background. Never see their personalities, or get to hear their views.

    I think it would be great if the odd time the Sunday Game (the live show or the highlights show) have a ref on doing an analysis. Just to give their views on certain instances. And I don't just mean focusing on the refereeing performance of a specific match on at that time - but to actually give their views on the actual match (or maybe they have, and I just missed them).

    I'm sure from all his big game experiences, the likes of Gough would have plenty of little insights to offer. Or couple of interesting stories. Might liven up the studio a bit anyway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,721 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Ignorance is at the heart of the majority of the issues. Parents, mentors and players simply do not understand the rules of the game. Particularly the difference between the codes.

    The GAA/LGFA etc should be insisting on all mentors, particularly lead mentors, take some form of rules course. I know they do courses but it should be mandatory like the fundamental course and child protection courses



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,926 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    TBH there is a lot of rules in GAA. Even lads that play it all there life do not understand the rules. John Clearly should have said this is what David Gough said to me, then I must view the video to see if it was a goal scoring chance, I. Live play I taught not. But like many managers he cannot see black from white.

    Along with knowing the rules it also know the nuances within the rules. It amazing you will see a lad gone to ground and 2-3 or more players around him. But when he tries to get up invariably some player pushes him back down, instead of a turnover or a free for the tacklers it a free for the player on the ground. It amazing to the amount of fans and even players I have to explain that to.

    Another one is the southern amount of lads that do not understand its shoulder to shoulder if the contact is any bit in front of behind its a free.

    It's like Tom Morrissey hit on Cathal Barrett's in hurling, I have explained to lads of Limerick fans if that happened in a football game TM would have probably got a red card definitely a yellow


    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,704 ✭✭✭citykat


    What match, opposition/year/competition, did Cody mouth off to a ref at half time as he left the pitch?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭Asdfgh2020


    He was definitely a fan of ‘giving his unwanted opinion’ to linesmen and refs during a game….I’ll find some clips and post them later



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭Asdfgh2020




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,704 ✭✭✭citykat


    I was at that game. Nothing resembling your accusation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭Asdfgh2020


    I’ll have a look for a few more examples and not just of Cody others engage in it too….. given your user name I assume this is a sensitive subject



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,738 ✭✭✭flasher0030


    Cody was always at it. No point in trying to defend the indefensible, when it is widely recognised that he was frequently in the ref's ear.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭Asdfgh2020


    Obviously kk folk have different recollections of the interactions and that it was only nice friendly banter between ref and Cody…🤣

    It’s not that easy to get footage of such incidents on tv as the camera usually pans away from the sideline or when the whistle blows at half/full time but nobody can deny the sentiments expressed in the incident v waterford in 2017 where he made contact with the 4 official and engaged in a bout of finger pointing / mouthing off



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,704 ✭✭✭citykat


    You made a specific allegation that you can't support.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,309 ✭✭✭evolvingtipperary101


    A referee who was knocked unconscious after being assaulted at a GAA match in Roscommon last year, has told a court that he now lives with anxiety and has lost all interest in GAA.

    Kevin Naughton told Ballinasloe District Court that he been receiving counselling since the assault.

    James Kenny, 40, with an address at Ballyforan, Co Roscommon, was charged with assaulting Mr Naughton at Ballyforan GAA grounds on 31 August 2022.

    Mr Naughton, who had been officiating an under-17 match in Ballyfornan, outlined to the court that he had received "some abuse from the sideline" during the second half and went to deal with it.

    He explained how he went to take a card out of his pocket when an official made contact with him and he was knocked to the ground.

    He told the court he lost consciousness and woke up to a number of people helping him.

    Mr Naughton told the court he could not move following the incident and an ambulance came and brought him to Portiuncula Hospital in Ballinasloe.

    The court heard how the referee suffered neck and soft tissue injuries.

    Mr Naughton told the court that he has lost all interest in the GAA and referring and has not been at a GAA grounds since the incident.

    He told the court he suffers from anxiety, is receiving counselling and is on medication.

    Judge James Faughnan was shown video footage of the incident which he described as "quite shocking" and said the charge in this case should be a Section 3 assault, which is a more serious charge of assault causing harm.

    The court heard the DPP had accepted a Section 2 charge of assault in this case.

    Garda Tony Brennan told the court that Mr Kenny had acknowledged his actions from the start and had expressed remorse.

    He said Mr Kenny had co-operated throughout the investigation and also acknowledged that he should not have been on the field and should not have made contact with the referee.

    He said Mr Naughton was fair and reasonable and was anxious the matter be dealt with in a way that was not stressful to anyone.

    Judge Faughan said he was not accepting that this was a Section 2 assault.

    He told Mr Kenny that the matter will be dealt with in the circuit court, saying "if I dealt with it today you would be going to prison for six months".

    "Referees are protected and to see what this man has gone through. It's not about the injury, it's about the entirety of the injuries" Judge Faughnan said.

    Defence solicitor Marie Conroy for Mahon Sweeney solicitors told the court that there was no intent by Mr Kenny, who had acknowledged there was contact with the referee.

    Judge Faughnan adjourned the case until 27 July to allow for the preparation of a Book of Evidence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,332 ✭✭✭keeponhurling


    OMG

    priority number one for the GAA is a clampdown and change of culture on this



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,635 ✭✭✭✭greenspurs




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,721 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Who doesn't help themselves?

    The referee was perfectly correct in his actions. Ballinaglera was taking the p1ss.

    He gave them plenty of warnings, which according to the report they ignored, and only when he actually carried out the threat to restart the game did they suddenly come onto the field.

    The ref was perfectly correct to abandon the game given the abuse he obviously faced after the start of the 2nd half



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,635 ✭✭✭✭greenspurs


    The ref obviously.....

    He wasnt perfectly correct.

    The rules state:

    "1.3 COMMENCING PLAY (i) The Referee shall toss a coin for choice of ends in the presence of the team captains. This procedure shall be repeated for Extra Time, where played. (ii) Two Players from each team shall stand one behind the other on their own defensive side of the halfway line, and shall face the referee, for the throw in.23  The other Players, shall be in their respective positions behind the 45m line (Football) or 65m line (Hurling)."

    If one team isnt there , he cant restart the game in accordance with the rules?


    And the rubbish about the 15mins for half time break werent up ?= Bsh1t.

    Thats in Intercounty games ? - club games = "not exceed 10 minutes" ?

    "3.3  An interval, not exceeding ten minutes, shall be allowed at half-time, following which the teams shall change ends. Exception:  In Inter-County Senior games, the interval shall consist of a maximum of fifteen minutes. "


    You cant restart the game.

    You warn the team if they arent out , you will abandon it.

    And then you report them delaying the restart afterwards.

    "Bright lights and Thunder .................... " #NoPopcorn



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,721 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    So you think the ref was incorrect although the team were outside the rules? That is a strange take.

    The rule you quoted says nothing about restarting after half-time.

    3.3 does state 10 minutes, of which the team were well over, and despite numerous warnings refused to come out to restart the game.

    Where does it say you cannot restart the game?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,635 ✭✭✭✭greenspurs


    "1.3 COMMENCING PLAY (i) The Referee shall toss a coin for choice of ends in the presence of the team captains. This procedure shall be repeated for Extra Time, where played. (ii) Two Players from each team shall stand one behind the other on their own defensive side of the halfway line, and shall face the referee, for the throw in.23  The other Players, shall be in their respective positions behind the 45m line (Football) or 65m line (Hurling)."

    If one team isnt there , he cant restart the game in accordance with the rules?


    "Two players from each team........"

    if one team isnt on the field , he cannot start the game within the games rules....

    It would be the same for starting the first half, as well as the second half ...

    "Bright lights and Thunder .................... " #NoPopcorn



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