Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

AdamD · 10-06-2023 2:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120698103#Comment_120698103

Treadwell didn't fall through the cracks

10-06-2023 2:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120698005#Comment_120698005

There’s no argument for suggesting his form has been better than Molony’s over the past season. He’s played a lot of minutes, but there have been plenty of days this season where the Munster pack were distinctly second best with Kleyn in the row.

There’s only been one game this season arguably where Molony has been part of a beaten pack, and that was at the very highest level of club rugby.

AbusesToilets · 10-06-2023 3:02pm

We've had Haley and Kleyn, who's the next mediocre player to spend pages and pages arguing for their inclusion?

10-06-2023 3:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120698132#Comment_120698132

And, fwiw, this isn’t me suggesting Molony for the squad either.

When I picked my 45 man squad I had Kleyn in there, and I absolutely think he’s a better player than Kieran Treadwell, but, crucially, Andy Farrell, Simon Easterby and Paul O’Connell don’t.

aloooof · 10-06-2023 3:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120698064#Comment_120698064

Almost an arrogance in suggesting that he would 100% want to play for Ireland again if he had been called up if this was a possibility for him.

He’s told us as much that he would:

Obviously, I’d be delighted to play for Ireland again and represent the country. It would be massive for me but if it doesn’t happen, it’s just part of life.

Musicrules · 10-06-2023 3:29pm

I think everyone would prefer if it was all Irish players winning the World Cup or at least for them to have relatives from here but that's not the way it is. Rugby is a sport where country of birth really doesn't matter too much. Every country tries to take advantage of it. Look at New Zealand. Others haven't given it a thought when they had a few foreign players winning the World Cup with them and it will be the same for us when we win.

Downlinz · 10-06-2023 3:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120698109#Comment_120698109

There are parameters within the IRFU strategic plan that coaches must operate within, it's ridiculous to suggest otherwise. We know that no matter how much POC wants to he would be unable to call up Roux or Dillane for playing in France for example, so no he doesn't have entire free reign on which second rows are in the squad and we all understand that.

I never said it was a bad thing either. Nucifora has a role towards long term development beyond the current coaches tenure and I'm sure the fast tracking of Joe McCarthy will pay dividend in the future at some point as well. If international coaches only worked with the best players in the present with no future planning we'd wind up in a situation like Wales are now with almost their entire core of leaders ageing out at the same time. There's a balance to be struck and I suppose we'll see during the RWC if Ireland got it right on Kleyn.

aloooof · 10-06-2023 3:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120698132#Comment_120698132

There’s no argument for suggesting his form has been better than Molony’s over the past season.

I’d entirely disagree tbh: imo 2021-22 Molony was better. Kleyn’s been better this season.

but there have been plenty of days this season where the Munster pack were distinctly second best with Kleyn in the row.

There’s only been one game this season arguably where Molony has been part of a beaten pack, and that was at the very highest level of club rugby.

”pack” is doing a lot of heavy lifting in this argument tho.

10-06-2023 3:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120698234#Comment_120698234

There is absolutely no parallel between the clear and obvious restrictions around picking players who don’t play for one of the provinces, and the fictional scenario you’ve created in your head about POC not being allowed to pick Jean Kleyn by the big bad IRFU.

Its nothing more than nonsensical conspiracy theory stuff.

If Paul O’Connell really rated Jean Kleyn then he’d be in this squad. Simple as that.

Former Former Former · 10-06-2023 3:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120698103#Comment_120698103

Hes never had Kleyn in an Ireland camp to have much of an opinion on him to be fair.

That tells you everything you need to know.

He hasn't been in a camp because no one has seen any value in bringing him in.

Not even our Munster born and bred forwards coach who probably knows a thing or two about what makes a good test lock.

aloooof · 10-06-2023 3:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120698143#Comment_120698143

Oh probably Gavin Coombes, the guy who hasn’t played well against Leinster or in Europe this season.

Apparently.

10-06-2023 3:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120698235#Comment_120698235

Pack isn’t doing heavy lifting in this sentence - once again this season no player played more minutes or more games than Ross Molony, and he lost once all season, in the European Cup Final by the bare minimum.

He had lots of excellent performances this season.

Former Former Former · 10-06-2023 3:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120698286#Comment_120698286

Since Coombes is in the squad, that's probably unlikely.

ulsteru20s · 10-06-2023 3:56pm

I do think it is funny that people were saying before along the lines of ‘well he isn’t good enough for south africa’. I guess he is lol.

Munster must be feeling kind of monumentally screwed here. It would be hard not to be. That is now TWO good players who they will probably lose because their faces don’t fit with ireland. Its really hard to look at for example Harry Byrne vs Healy, or McCarthy vs Kleyn and think… yea the first one is obviously better.

The second one is the crazy one imo. Kleyn has been way better than mccarthy this year. He’s just a better player right now and the world cup is this year.

I see the plan and i see that it is cohesion and system over everything but we need to beat south africa and we need to get to at least a world cup semi.

TomsOnTheRoof · 10-06-2023 3:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120698295#Comment_120698295

And no player has played more minutes for Munster than Kleyn and his contributions are a significant reason for Munster having something to show for their season.

10-06-2023 4:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120698303#Comment_120698303

Do you honestly believe this stuff?

Do you honestly think the coaches are setting out to “screw” Munster by not picking these players?

Are you seriously suggesting the coaches don’t pick who they think are the best available players? What earthly reason would the coaches have for not picking the players they believe fits their gameplan and strategy best?

Former Former Former · 10-06-2023 4:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120698303#Comment_120698303

Harry Byrne isn't in the squad

Kleyn didn't lose out to McCarthy, he lost out to Treadwell and that's a pretty clear indictment of where he's at. Funny no Munster fan ever wants to debate Munster guy vs Ulster guy. Only ever Munster v Leinster.

ulsteru20s · 10-06-2023 4:01pm

Ross Moloney is not an athlete. He exists as a leader in a pack surrounded by great athletes. He’s not an actual international class player like Kleyn. That argument is pure delusion.

aloooof · 10-06-2023 4:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120698295#Comment_120698295

Comparing individual players by comparing the performances of their respective packs is obviously, hugely hugely flawed.

ulsteru20s · 10-06-2023 4:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120698321#Comment_120698321

It’s a lot more likely someone like healy stays if he gets called up into camps like Byrne did.

How the hell did kleyn lose out to treadwell? He’s not a similar to Treadwell at all. Him and McCarthy are the most similar of the fringe locks. And if he somehow lost out to treadwell then that is also ridiculous.

10-06-2023 4:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120698313#Comment_120698313

Yeah, grand. He had a good season, but Munster were awful for chunks of this season you may recall.

They started the season terribly, losing games to some of the worst teams in the competition. Lost games against all the Irish provinces this year. Beaten home and away by Toulouse. Utterly humiliated in Europe by the Sharks where the final score actually flattered Munster. Got a hiding in Thomond from Glasgow.

Yeah, sure they responded brilliantly from there and finished the season well, but you can’t just ignore and forget all those days when they were distinctly second best too.

Non-casual observers are capable of forming a view over a longer time period than one or two games at the end of the season.

ulsteru20s · 10-06-2023 4:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120698319#Comment_120698319

I believe you can feel screwed without someone intentionally trying to screw you.

I think the coaches are going too far down the road of fit over talent but we’ll see at the world cup.

10-06-2023 4:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120698332#Comment_120698332

This is an argument frequently trotted out by Munster fans seeking to downplay the abilities of individual Leinster players.

In any event - this whole argument is a sideshow. Ross Molony isn’t the standard he needs to be better than, it’s a lot higher than that.

aloooof · 10-06-2023 4:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120698321#Comment_120698321

Funny no Munster fan ever wants to debate Munster guy vs Ulster guy. Only ever Munster v Leinster

I’ve literally been making that exact argument about Treadwell since the squad was named….

10-06-2023 4:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120698334#Comment_120698334

I’ve no idea how Kleyn lost out to Treadwell, and if I were selecting, I’d have Kleyn of those two.

But, I absolutely don’t believe it’s some grand conspiracy theory, or some sort of anti Munster theory, which you’re claiming it is.

Ben Healy never deserved to be in an Irish squad. It’s that simple. We shouldn’t be capping guys just in case they might decide to f** off elsewhere if the Irish coaches don’t rate them.

The least deserving player in the entire squad let’s not forget, Dave Kilcoyne, is a Munster player.

aloooof · 10-06-2023 4:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120698348#Comment_120698348

This is an argument frequently trotted out by Munster fans seeking to downplay the abilities of individual Leinster players.

It’s exactly the opposite tbh.

You’re crediting Molony with not having lost all season til the last 2 games. The reality is it’s Leinster that had that record, not Molony.

Swap the front rows and that could easily be entirely different. And that would have had nothing to do with Molony or Kleyn.

stephen_n · 10-06-2023 4:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120698103#Comment_120698103

You think Nucifora is dictating selection policy for the Irish team. There have been some peaches in here today but that’s right up there. Thanks for the laugh.

10-06-2023 4:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120698364#Comment_120698364

No, Leinster’s wins are driven by the quality of their players. It’s a literal fact to say Ross Molony lost one single game this season.

Hes a guy with a high tackle count, huge work rate, excellent distributor and a far better line out forward than Kleyn. He equally deserves his share of the credit for the significant role he plays in the wins Leinster have racked up in recent years.

ulsteru20s · 10-06-2023 4:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120698359#Comment_120698359

When did i claim that? I didn’t.

The fact is that Kleyn is being picked by a country overflowing with great locks.

The guys who were picked over him at ireland are either not really fully formed and/or simply not as good.

How would you not feel screwed in that situation? It doesn’t have to intentional for you to feel screwed. It just has to feel unfair.

stephen_n · 10-06-2023 4:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120698322#Comment_120698322

If Kleyn was actually international class and he most definitely isn’t. He would be in the squad for Ireland. Nor is Jason Jenkins.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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