"Tomboy" pre-teen

sekond · 12-06-2023 10:30am #1

(Just to say upfront that this is not a gender issue. My daughter is quite secure in her gender and I really need advice on how to handle other people's reactions to her, or help her handle other people's reactions).

My 12 year old is what we would have called a "tomboy" when I was growing up. She hates to wear dresses/skirts or more "girly" clothes. (Although she is a fan of a bit of sparkle). She mostly lives in football kit and if she isn't playing football she's talking about it. About 3 years ago she begged to get her hair cut short, which we were perfectly happy to do, and she currently rocks a very stylish, slightly feminine looking pixie cut. We are happy with this, she is happy with this.

Except. Particularly when her hair has grown out a bit or she is wearing one of her many baseball caps, people can't seem to get past the "short hair = boy". Mostly we just laugh about it, if you looked for more than half a second it would be quite obvious she is female, but I frequently have to correct people, or bring into conversation that she is a girl. e.g. in a sports shop, looking at (usually) football boots - assistant "what size does he take". me "she takes a size 4". She has a very feminine name, but even when I've used the name, people still call her a boy. It's mostly just laziness or not looking properly, and like I said we mostly just laugh about it, and she sometimes wonders should she get a great big badge saying "I'm a girl".

Except this weekend, we were out shopping and she needed to go to the bathroom. I had a load of bags, so said I'd wait outside the door and she could go in herself. When she was in there, apparently someone (she said "an older lady Mum. Not your age, maybe a bit older" so probably somewhere between 50 and 70) said "this is the ladies you know". My daughter apparently didn't know what to say so just said "I know" and kept going. But, since it happened she has been talking repeatedly about her hair (alternating between letting it grow again, which I know she really doesn't want, or getting it cut again so it's back looking more obviously feminine). She claimed it didn't bother her, but the following day when we were out she refused to go into the bathroom unless her older sister came with her.

I mean, it won't be an issue in a couple of years because she will be obviously female, and hopefully more able to standup for herself, but she's very shy and part of me just gets frustrated because how hard it is it to take a proper look at someone. Has anyone got any tips on how to make it easier for her (other than the great big "I'm a girl" badge)?

Apiarist · 12-06-2023 10:35am

the great big "I'm a girl" badge

A pink hairband, if she can wear it? Or she can put it on only when going to the ladies toilet so that any old ladies can be sufficiently appeased?

sekond · 12-06-2023 10:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704455#Comment_120704455

🤣 🤣I'm just picturing her face at being told she has to wear a pink hairband for any purpose! I'm sure there must be some clothing she has had in the past 5 years that has pink on it, but for the life of me I can't remember any.

Apiarist · 12-06-2023 10:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704485#Comment_120704485

I know, it is a prop only. Ideally, your daughter would not be affected by what some random lady says, but young people are usually more sensitive than adults and the prop may help her ward off the unwanted attention.

DeadHand · 12-06-2023 10:49am

She need not change her appearance or behaviour, and it would be unhealthy to advise her to do so in my opinion. Rather, I'd advise her that the old lady was a rude fool.

It's the old lady who was in the wrong and had the problem, not the child.

Larbre34 · 12-06-2023 10:49am

Honestly, I wouldn't be concerned about the influence of some blind old bat.

"I know" was the perfect answer to someone pointing out the obvious.

The less of a deal you make of it, the better, keep it on the down low where it belongs.

If you feel she could benefit from some more outward signs of girliness in her style and fashion, then collaborate with her on it. Take her shopping and make sure to top up on plenty of the basics she feels happy in, but maybe casually suggest some trainers or a top with a bit of bling, maybe a nice fitted embroidered jeans, something that's very her but might flatter her a bit more as a girl.

With her hair, again don't go overboard, but maybe have a magazine hanging around with some choppy short styles that are close to what she likes, but also womanly.

Overall though, don't sweat it too much, give her love every day, she'll find her own way on the rest. This stuff is what being 12 is all about.

Apiarist · 12-06-2023 10:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704530#Comment_120704530

That's correct. But obviously the girl was disturbed by the old lady remark enough to avoid going to a bathroom alone. She is a kid, she cannot instantly become a tough 30 year old who does not care about what other people think.

sekond · 12-06-2023 11:14am

To be fair, even if she agreed to the hairband idea, it would likely get put down to use as a goal marker somewhere and that would be last we would see of it!

I'm very much of the view that my daughter most definitely isn't the problem - and should be allowed wear whatever she wants, and she and I can both handle the occasional mistake - I just don't want her to think she has to make excuses for her fashion choices, or feel that she is doing something wrong. And yes, keeping it low key probably is the way to go, I just felt so sorry for her.

But maybe there's no harm in introducing a few blingy things into her wardrobe. I've been trying for quite some time to introduce a nice pair of skinny jeans with no success - there's a strong comfort element to her clothes choices too - the discovery of boy's shorts and football shorts as an option rather than the very short, no pocket, uncomfortable options in the girls clothes were an absolute revelation for her - but we'll have a look to see what's available. She has also started "borrowing" big sister's lip gloss, so her own sense of style might develop in such a way soon that it becomes a bit more irrelevant.

(Big sister was ready to go to war on her behalf, so at least I know when they are together she's covered)

AndrewJRenko · 12-06-2023 11:21am

There is a disturbing trend among the TERF movement of challenging anyone who doesn’t meet “traditional standards of appearance” in public bathrooms. Unfortunately, it is likely that the issue you describe may get worse, even as her body matures.

You may want to prepare her with appropriate responses and tactics, such as how to say GFY in multiple languages.

12-06-2023 11:34am

FFS.

If something like this happens again tell her to say "Not all princesses dress in pink".

Don't try to change her appearance, equip her with some quick comebacks.

Give her a hug, and tell her the answer she gave that aul wagon was fine.

DeadHand · 12-06-2023 12:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704578#Comment_120704578

For me, it's better to equip a child to deal with adversity rather than to teach them to hide their true selves in order to duck it.

If you encourage her to change everytime someone challenges her, you're going to set a dangerous and unhealthy precedent.

It really was disgraceful behaviour on the part of the adult in this case.

Apiarist · 12-06-2023 12:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704728#Comment_120704728

Good advice. But the "equip her with some quick comebacks" part is unlikely to work. Did you follow parental advice when you were a teen? Personally, I didn't. And it is difficult for a well behaved teen to give a rehearsed comeback to an old lady.

12-06-2023 12:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120705037#Comment_120705037

It's worth a try. A snappy comeback doesn't have to be delivered in a sarcastic tone, it can just as easily be delivered with a big wide smile.

If she is going into secondary this year, it would be as well to start practising now!

(And maybe I was unusual, but I did trust my parents!)

Apiarist · 12-06-2023 12:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120705030#Comment_120705030

Yeah, right. Personally, I have abandoned my idealistic, confrontational views years ago. Now I am usually just shrug my shoulders and go past. Just like the OP's daughter did effectively.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704665#Comment_120704665

Please do not misunderstand me. I am not advocating that your daughter should be forced or "persuaded" to wear pink or sparkly stuff if she does not want it.

What I am saying is just this. If she has a mental block with going into bathrooms because she is afraid of old bigots that might mistake her for a boy, she can use some prop, like a hairband, to overcome her fear until she can deal with it more effectively (like being able to tell that old lady to shut her gob).

DeadHand · 12-06-2023 1:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120705131#Comment_120705131

It need not be about confronting anyone. It's about not changing ways in which she is happy and comfortable to be in the world due to the ignorance of others.

Indeed, if she were equipped to shrug her shoulders, go past and think no more of it, that would be the ideal response.

The question in the OP is about how she should change in order to avoid the rude, ignorant comments in the first place. This is the wrong starting point, in my opinion.

sekond · 12-06-2023 1:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120705331#Comment_120705331

I may have phrased things wrong, it certainly isn't about changing who she is, or how she presents herself. I'm long acclimatised to doing our clothes shopping in the boys section, and the sports shop, with the occasional diversion into the girls section when something catches her eye. She's happy, I'm happy.

It was more about internal changes - i.e. how can I give her the skills to handle this sort of thing. Or how to talk to her about occasions like the weekend - and get her confidence back for going places by herself without big sister as back up.

MrMusician18 · 14-06-2023 11:50am

This is not going to be an easy one to resolve to be honest. If your girl has the outward appearance that is typically considered boyish then she will be treated like she were a boy. There is no getting around that, and that is not going to change any time soon, at least not before your child grows up. So you have three options - do nothing, change something that gives an outward cue that the child is female or tell your child to defend herself when challenged.

You obviously want to do something since you asked so I would suggest a mix of two and three. Telling a child as young as 12 that she needs to shrug her shoulders and ignore, or be confrontational is not a good idea. This is not an adult we are talking about. It's far too idealist, it's the "right" answer but really it's also totally impractical and counterproductive. So you should try to avoid these situations cropping up in the first instance. Is it great that we might have to change to conform? No. But if it's the choice between conformity Vs confrontation and the individual is a child, well then idealism we see on show here needs to take a back seat.

Sleepy · 14-06-2023 12:01pm

Not a solution but perhaps a bandaid that might help her a little: you mentioned she's mad about football and not sure if you meant GAA or soccer but if the former would she be into the pink county kit jerseys?

sekond · 22-06-2023 9:05am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713892#Comment_120713892

It's soccer she's into, but pink jerseys would be a no-no anyway. She's practically allergic to the colour. Now, if they made them in purple sparkles, that might be a different matter!

In any case, it seems like, for now at least, she isn't as impacted by the whole thing as I feared (and maybe it's just a case of overthinking on my part). She was in need of a bit of a haircut to tidy it up a bit. I always let her talk to the hairdresser about what she wants, and the hairdresser is excellent about putting out various options including letting it grow out a bit. She came back with shorter hair, with a lovely spiky top that she has discovered can be more or less feminine, depending on her mood/outfit.

So she's obviously not thinking about changing her look to deal with people who can't handle girls with short hair. So maybe I should stop worrying so much.

JDD · 10-07-2023 11:33am

Perhaps it might be good to have a conversation with her about the whole transgender bathroom thing. I mean, thirty years ago that old lady would probably have assumed that your daughter was a girl with short hair, and not made a comment. It might have taken her a second glance, but it's unlikely she would have commented.

Now there's so much in the newspapers about gender neutral school toilets, and should a teen who identifies as another gender be able to use that gender's toilets etc etc - I'd say the old lady jumped to a conclusion and without a second glance assumed your daughter was a boy. So just say that the old lady was a) rude, b) probably confused by everything she is reading, c) jumped to a conclusion she shouldn't have. And just reassure your daughter that something like that will be rare, that she looks fabulous the way she is, and she reacted perfectly to it.

10-07-2023 11:45am

I just saw this going past on the main page, but my only advice is this is absolutely do not let a rude, inappropriate and bullying outburst by some weird bathroom policing busybody be a cause for her to change how she dresses, behaves or anything else about her.

She just met one of the bathroom brigade and honestly they are becoming a problem for a lot of women from what I have heard.

This incident is ENTIRELY down to a very strange woman who decided to bully a child in a public toilet. That's the simple crux of the matter.

Girls and woman have short hair, long hair, enjoy football and can be hugely into sport. I know several female rugby players for example and they meet no stereotypes of anything, other than possibly rugby players. I know women into weight lifting and all sorts of stuff.

Guys can equally be into art, theatre, fashion, dance and all of those things and it does not make them any less of a guy. That's just part of the massive range of personalities and interests that humans have. We're not all walking stereotypes.

Unfortunately, I think you'll just have to explain there are some very rude people out there and that she needs to know that the problem is in their head and that she needs to look at them as being stuck in some kind of narrow-minded world view and being bullies. It is absolutely nothing whatesover to do with her, her dress sense, her hairstyle, personality, or anything else.

"Tomboy" pre-teen

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