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Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,115 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I fully expect the pre-trial motion to succeed and for this matter to never see the inside of an open Court.

    Craughwell's intentions may be noble enough here, but he's overreaching. And he knows it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭sparky42


    I think you are right, but at least it keeps the focus on the issue and might mean someone has some grown up comments/discussions on the matter at the 4 thinkins of Martin over the summer.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,454 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Thing is, October means its in the news while the 2024 estimates are being drawn up. Hood to keep it in the news, even if its clear govt have no intention of doing anything until 2030 at the earliest.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,115 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Makes no difference really, the budget increases out to 2028 have been well telegraphed and we can't recruit enough servicemen right now to even consume the existing budget.

    I suppose the Government will simply point to the Commission report and the radar acquisition programme and say 'no comment, but we are making improvements'



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,454 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Its a bit like when you are a kid and your ma tells you to tidy your room, and you stack up a few books... before lying down to take a nap.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,758 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    They started looking at the Primary Radar in 2015 they must know every sales Broucher inside out by now



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭sparky42


    While it was mentioned in 2015 and some of the companies did try and capitalise on that, the department only started a procurement team since the Commission, and with how things are changing, is the capabilities/pricing of whatever was suggested in 2015 relevant nearly 10 years on? Let alone when/if they actually put a Tender out given the pace Procurement goes in DOD.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,454 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    It was first mentioned in the DF white paper of 2001. Remember 2001 when nothing significant in aviation happened...



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,115 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Nah, whole different paradigm now.

    Supply chain, capacity, inflationary cycle, high demand for the specific technology etc.

    They might as well have read the Smyths Toys Christmas brochure in 2015, for all the good it would do them now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,454 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Reading between the lines it's like they want to combine Maritime and aviation primary radar. Both are huge weaknesses, and if you can get them all monitored in one place, mores the better.

    2 or 3 decades ago, there were men with binoculars (some even with radar) watching the coasts in Ireland's lighthouses.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,115 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Are you talking about a fixed land-based platform of sea surface surveillance?

    Is that even practical beyond a very short range of land?



  • Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    The only ones that need to grow up are the ones crying about an agreement that is clearly beneficial to both parties, infact one could argue it's more so towards Ireland's favor.

    The ones crying are only doing so cause theyre upset they can't do it.

    It's a nonsense case that In all likelyhood is gonna be tossed aside like nothing and the agreement will continue which will further allow the government to put the air corps and radar on the back burner...

    Because why go to all that trouble when they can get the job done better for cheaper.

    Harsh reality of the situation.


    Think about it...

    RAF..

    Already set up fully functional top tire equipment.

    More than capable of doing the job.

    More than likely have been doing it for the last few decades.

    Combat Proven.

    Or

    Air Corp..

    Massive financial outlay,

    No equipment

    No infrastructure

    No training program

    Constant upkeep costs

    Decade or more till operational

    Likelyhood of being needed extremely low

    No combat experience.


    It's a no brainier for the gov.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,115 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Firstly, your assessment of the reality of anything, is best disregarded.

    But one thing Craughwell and others have done, is to raise awareness of the unsatisfactory nature of the situation, not to mention the hypocrisy.

    That genie isn't going back in the bottle and by setting up and then accepting the recommendations of the CoDF, the Government have conceded the point.

    Cost has really nothing to do with it. This is about a sovereign Republic contracting out big chunks of its defence obligations to the very nation with whom we were essentially in conflict, for centuries. A territorial conflict which remains unresolved to this day. And that matters to many people in Ireland.

    Who knows, it may well matter to the Brits too. They have become very insular in this last decade and they could withdraw from the agreement at any moment. What then?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Even if they didn't the more coming out about the state of the RAF/RN and the long term "plans" of the UK Government makes you wonder how long they are going to be willing at the very least not to be presenting us with a bill every year for the services they are providing for us. Their ambitions well exceed their capabilities and giving us a blanket cover simply because of how F'd UP our national view on defence is an area they could well look at.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭sparky42


    I could see the systems being feeding back to the same command facility but would positions for Primary Radar work for Maritime Radar as well? If they were to use the preexisting sites for the IAA would they work as well? Would the systems cause interference with each other I wonder and what kind of systems are we looking at given the suggested Kite for Project costs? Makes you wonder which nation they have already sent a team to, might give us an idea about what general capabilities they are looking at.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,454 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    As far as sites go, the current IAA sites give good air and coastal coverage for the west coast, but not so much for the east, and for anything hugging the coastline to the south either. You could easily piggyback current IAA secondary on primary. one is a receiver only, the other transmits and receives. Military search radar do it all the time, with an IFF receiver mounted on top of the Air Search radar antennae. Same tech basically.



  • Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    Firstly you are of highly questionable character (That's being very polite) which is evident from your recent post's mocking people with disabilities and I am honestly surprised that you are even tolerated here regardless of the discussion at hand.

    They conceded nothing, and if you think that's some sort of win you'll be old and grey waiting for your radar and fighter jets...post all the articles you want and all the promises from the gov you want you wont see jets in this country for a very..very long time and with successive gov all these promises will be subject to change.

    What then? nothing the same thing that's been happening for decades, the doomsday scenarios you have in your head are exactly that all in your head!

    And they aren't insular either that's another over exaggeration and not based in fact at all only you trying bend reality to your own argument.

    They have made agreements with the US they are one of the top backers of the Ukraine all very insular activities.

    But incase you haven't noticed its in there interest to keep the Skys over Ireland safe as it is too close for comfort even for themselves self preservation alone will keep that agreement standing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,758 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    If the P60s were upgraded with an Air Search radar and tied in with the land radar stations could that provide a full picture?. Do the new 295s have any air search radar or are the only fitted with Marine



  • Registered Users Posts: 238 ✭✭mupper2


    Their EL/M-2022A(V)3 radar does have air surveillance modes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,115 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Its 'their' and 'skies'.

    I didn't want to make my response too long, as I wouldn't want to keep you from all those infractions appeals that you appear to be busy with.

    You know, the ones where people explain to you when you're wrong and how you react when you don't like it.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    You cant beat me in a debate so you have to resort to personal attacks, thats pathetic.

    Unfortunately i carry myself with far too much class to lower myself to your level.

    Post edited by delusiondestroyer on


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,115 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I have beaten you in a debate.

    It's easy when your opponent is ignorant of the issues and many of the facts and refuses to consider the nuance of a situation, particularly one with such a political dimension.

    You're just an annoying waffler. A spoofer who drops in here now and again, to give himself a hard-on with his own malformed righteousness.

    Go on about your business.



  • Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    Great read really shows how effective the RAF is and that it is very practical for them to cover Ireland too, we are fortunate to have an elite combat proven Airforce providing security and saving us hundreds of millions a year honestly a masterstroke by the government the ego's were firmly put aside and the most effective option chosen.

    Results..

    Hundreds of millions saved.

    Decades of secure skies.

    Cant argue with the facts.



  • Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    Air corps screaming for grippens while we have typhoons for free..

    Typhoon is in a league of its own. It can reach speeds of up to 1,550 mph, and it has a range of more than 3,000 miles.

    The Gripen, on the other hand, has a top speed of just 1,275 mph and a range of only 2,500 miles. In terms of armament, the Typhoon can carry up to nine missiles, while the Gripen can carry just six.

    The Typhoon also has superior electronic warfare capabilities and an advanced radar system.

    FACTS



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Just use the block function, a lot easier to ignore them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    They are too slow and could do nothing about it even if they could see the full picture, anything beyond a slow moving helicopter or a cesna is beyond the P60s scope.



  • Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    Just set up a private thread for yourselves where you can hide away from any opinion contrary to your own, you have been on this thread for years now saying the same stuff over and over and insulting posters when someone holds an opinion different to your own.

    A group chat for your echo chamber buddies would be far more ideal than a public form where opinions are contested.

    You are wrong and I proven you so on multiple occasions, I have also dispelled this "need for fighter jets" for the nonsense that it is.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    You could argue that we don't need a naval force, air force or even army (just a police force) and outsource it all to another country but that leads to why have any independence at all? Also that country is no longer a member of the EU! If we want to be an effectively independent soverign state we should have a modern defence force and that includes a modern fighter force.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,454 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    The P60s were definitely FFBNW Air search radar, and the Oerlikon 76mm can be used quite effectively in the AA role. Whether they can datalink their radar picture really depends on what unit they ever decide to go with. Very informative video apart from him saying Melara as Malaria, the whole way through.

    The Secondary Rh202 cannon are also reaching end of life, and much talk about an RWS system to replace these. Either way, many RWS that size also operate as a CIWS system, such as HITROLE 20 or Lionfish




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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,454 ✭✭✭Dohvolle




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