Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Yeah it's an interesting stance to look at. On the one hand, you could use someone like Mack Hansen's meteoric rise as evidence to the contrary (with the obvious caveat of wing and lock being very different roles) .

But at the same time you could use the Ireland A fixtures v NZ and even Kleyn's own performances four years ago (which although over-exaggerated over the Toner affair, weren't exactly spectacular) as evidence supporting that proposition - that it takes time for even great players to get up to speed and you can't just throw them in

And with the Hansen example, there's a risk/benefit too. Integrate him quickly and you have a landmark player in the starting XV. With Kleyn, you have what's at maximum a third choice lock (probably fourth behind Ryan, Hendo and Beirne).

It's an interesting thing to think about like - I just wish some of the posters quietly sitting on the sidelines could actively bring up and discuss points like this, rather than the thread devolving into a battle of Caps Lock. It just brings up the quality of the forum tenfold.

I'm middle ground with regards to whether leaving him out is ultimately the right or wrong call.

What I'm not middle ground about, is this idea that Jean Kleyn is some other worldly physical specimen compared to our other locks, and MUST be selected for that reason. I think that's nonsense.

I actually think most people are arguing the middle ground, but the 'bite us in the arse crowd' are so entrenched they're making anyone who doesn't think its all that important look like another extreme.

I think he's an alright player, wouldn't be fussed either way, but also think the selection of our 5th choice lock is pretty unimportant in the grand scheme of things. Is that not the middle ground?

The original point was that we don’t produce a lot of locks like that in our system. The counter point being, because we don’t produce a lot of locks like that, our system doesn’t rely on them.

The argument for Kleyn's inclusion are that he has been superb for Munster this season. He was named Munster Player of the season and was instrumental in turning our season around even when we had a huge injury crisis in the 2nd row. Kleyn had to carry that position on his own. His work rate and durability are exactly what you want from a top level 2nd row, and he has experience of playing against most of the South African and French players.

Its too late now, he's been called up for SA, but not even bringing him into camps for the 6 nations or Autumn internationals was a big mistake IMO, and then including Joe McCarthy when he has played hardly any rugby this year, and has not exactly blown anyone away with the games he did play in.

Its bizarre that for his club, McCarthy was behind Jenkins for the knockout stages this year, and Kleyn is ahead of Jenkins (in the SA pecking order) yet McCarthy is ahead of Kleyn for the Irish squad.

Well the last 10 or so pages was fun. A particular highlight was the 'he's bigger than him' spat. Unfortunately the school bell rang and we never got the scrap.

The sooner this World Cup is over the better.

I genuinely don't remember this. When was this a big thing?

No, as I've said before, I think Murray ought to have been called up. Likewise Hodnett, Loughman, Milne and Balacoune.

I reject the argument that it's a mistake on Farrell's part to not call up Kleyn. If he gets called up for this squad, not selected for the WC panel, and never features for Ireland again, what has been lost? I'd argue nothing, so what value is their in selecting him in the first place? I'd rather have guys who could genuinely compete for a spot.

There’s a lot of noise on the outside of both camps that inflame any debate. That’s what makes most threads on here unreadable.

Treadwell was in good form for NZ, less so now it seems (not having seen much of him myself). Kleyn might be in good form for Munster, but it's clear Farrell doesn't feel that's enough to warrant a spot. Molony has been in a similar situation, arguably for a lot longer. Why is it so hard for folks to accept that Kleyn isn't good enough for Ireland, when that's been evident for 4 years?

I remember that particular heated debate alright. Joe Schmidt gave an explanation that he preferred McGrath for his superior kicking ability, as he found other aspects were similar e.g. tackling, sniping, passing.

I think the contention at the time was that Marmion was a better player, but wasn't selected because he didn't play for Leinster.

In hindsight I think Marmion would have been the better choice, or at least taking 3 scrum-halves would have been better.