Energy infrastructure

12-06-2023 9:26am

BnM might have a mountain of work ahead of them in their transition from brown to green if ABP rule in favour of FIE

https://www.irishtimes.com/environment/2023/06/09/challenge-to-ballivor-wind-farm-may-hit-bord-na-monas-brown-to-green-transition/

The challenge won't stop their planned transition and FIE are not looking to stop them, rather making sure the required analysis and reports are completed prior to any work being done

CatInABox · 12-06-2023 10:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120703928#Comment_120703928

What I don't understand is why organisations are still doing this? There's so many different cases where applications are overturned because something wasn't filled out, or completed, or just straight up ignored, that only the most dense of individuals could think that it's worth gambling on.

millb · 12-06-2023 5:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120697934#Comment_120697934

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120688103#Comment_120688103

Firstly, why not use what is "available" to be piped from a proposed Corrib extension. So the decreasing ~ 20% from Corrib can be supplemented to 40-60% of national demand for the next 20 years rather than see the closing down of Corrib infrastructure in a few years and the wasteful building of LNG (which evaporates in transit etc.) or specific storage (which requires wasteful energy to both input and output).

Markcheese · 12-06-2023 7:03pm

I agree with you , if its available, and worthwhile it'd be crazy not to avail of it ..

Quite often the devil is in the detail..

Birdnuts · 13-06-2023 12:00am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120703928#Comment_120703928

Hope BNM get stuffed on this - they have shown nothing but contempt for their PCAS and IPC commitments when it comes to these bogs and the wishes of local communities.

Sam Russell · 13-06-2023 10:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120703928#Comment_120703928

Another case of the perfect being the enemy of the good.

What are BnaM meant to do about generations of peat extraction when the damage has been done. Using cutaway bog for wind generation is a good project. How can it made perfect?

13-06-2023 10:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120708355#Comment_120708355

As I understand it, this is a legal requirement regardless. On that basis they have to complete an EIA and apply for substitute consent no matter what they do if they are changing the use of the site. They can huff and puff and say whatever, but as its required they will have no option but to go back to the drawing board. Any delays as a result, are their own doing.

FIE said clearly, they are not looking to stop the wind farm, just that the EIA and any resulting work should be completed.

Think of it this way, it would be a farce to build a wind farm to reduce emissions, when the land its built on it emitting several times more carbon.

An EIA will bring problems like that to the fore and will allow ABP to make conditions like rewetting/restoration or other remediation measures as they would have the info necessary. Without the EIA they can't make any such conditions, which is, I'm guessing, why BnM ignored the requirement to complete it in the first place.

Markcheese · 13-06-2023 11:52am

How possible is it to put in a wind farm on a drained bog , and then reflood it ?

Bord na mona has ( or at least had ) plenty of expierience of heavy machinery that could travel on boggy ground ,

Sam Russell · 13-06-2023 12:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120708538#Comment_120708538

If they do not build the wind farm and leave the bog as is, then the carbon emissions continue as is. Build the wind farm and at least the energy created (or captured) is zero emissions.

So rewetting will make the windfarm harder to build and possibly impossible, so what is the gain in that?

13-06-2023 12:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120708868#Comment_120708868

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120708956#Comment_120708956

Just to clarify I'm not saying to rewet the bog in question and then build turbines in a flooded bog, sorry if I gave that impression. I'm saying that without an EIA, its not possible for ABP to outline specific conditions to be completed on the land in question. That could be any number of potential actions and rewetting is one such action but I've no idea if it would be applicable in this case or if it was, to what extent.

The main point here is the environmental impact assessment has to be done and BnM ignored that so FIE are challenging them on that.

What may come of the EIA and ABP's reading of it are another matter, the EIA must be done first

bob mcbob · 13-06-2023 12:55pm

Gas boilers to be banned in new builds from next year in Scotland

https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/23584135.scottish-ministers-propose-gas-boilers-ban-new-buildings-2024/

Birdnuts · 13-06-2023 11:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120708956#Comment_120708956

A rewetted bog will start to accumulate peat again - there are many other benefits like flood control, water purification and vital biodiversity functions. BNM are currently continuing to pump vast amounts of peat silt laden water into rivers and lakes in the midlands causing significant water quality problems ahead of windfarm construction, as well as significantly adding to flooding problems on the likes of the Shannon

PS: The idea that peatland protection and restoration is compatible with industrial windfarm development as BNM spins it is beyond laughable and they were recently laughed out of it presenting such BS at a recent conference on the matter in front of an audience of eminent peatland ecologists

hans aus dtschl · 14-06-2023 10:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120712382#Comment_120712382

Why though? What's the source of the incompatibility? I presume the foundations and access roads, but I don't understand why they would fundamentally compromise it?

cnocbui · 14-06-2023 11:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120709167#Comment_120709167

Marvelous.

https://www.scottishhousingnews.com/articles/heat-pumps-to-cost-231-more-than-gas-boilers

A Scottish Government business and regulatory impact assessment highlighted the increased costs of installing an air-source heat pump compared to a gas boiler, equivalent and put the cost at around £10,000 in additional costs.

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/patrick-harvies-one-size-fits-30215639?int_source=nba

So builders are saying they won't be able to meet new home construction targets put forth by the same government. Of course such targets are just a political sop to the electorate - 'vote for us, look, we are doing something to address the housing shortage, we made a target! It wasn't easy, but after a lot of hard work someone wrote 25,000 on a piece of paper.'

If houses use ground sourced heat pumps, you need to add the cost of a few square meters of additional floor space to a house for the plant noise. If they use air sourced heat pumps, excpect a continuous din from the racket they make. I speak from experience. My moher had a split system Mitsubishi heat pump in Australia, and if you were standing near the outdoor unit, it was loud. The indoor unit wasn't exactly quiet either.

MightyMunster · 14-06-2023 1:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713446#Comment_120713446

My parents got a ground source heatpump installed last year and didn't notice any noise when I was down there

bob mcbob · 14-06-2023 2:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713446#Comment_120713446

As regards your first link - you obviously did not read to the end of it.

A spokesperson for the Scottish Government told The Times: “The report in question is based on the situation in April 2021, long before the surge in gas prices to their current record levels.

“The picture would look very different today and even more so in the future given the significant potential for cost reductions in zero emissions heating technologies over the coming decades, highlighted by the report.”

The second link - the Scottish Daily Express - seriously

Lets look at the facts on this -

with a gas boiler you need to connect the new build house to the gas grid and then install the boiler.
with heat pump there is no need to connect to the gas grid so only cost is heat pump as connectivity to the electric grid is a given.

So how much do you think it would cost to connect a new estate to the gas grid, dig the trenching for the gas pipes, run these gas pipes to the house then install the gas pipes and metering in the new build.

Oh but no, according to the Express installing a heat pump is way way more complex and costly that any of the work needed to get gas to a new build.

cnocbui · 14-06-2023 5:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120714171#Comment_120714171

I specifically said air sourced. Grounds sourced have building cost issues and air sourced have noise issues.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120714297#Comment_120714297

Gas prices are back down again. Have you seen what's required for a ground sourced heat pump?

https://www.homebuilding.co.uk/advice/installing-a-ground-source-heat-pump

14-06-2023 7:40pm

Low gas prices won't last. There's a glut of supply at present due to the contraction in the Chinese economy. I wouldn't be relying on that to continue for too long.

Let's not forget the inexorable rise of carbon taxation which will hit gas also, though granted, to a lesser extent than other polluting fuels

Birdnuts · 15-06-2023 12:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713321#Comment_120713321

It fundamentally alters and damages the hydrology needed for bog recovery/restoration. A good source of coverage of this issue is provided via the Twitter account of the "Mid-Shannon Wilderness Park" committee currently battling the destructive actions of BNM on the Derryadd bog group adjacent to the Shannon in Longford.

bk · 15-06-2023 2:42pm

"Gas prices are back down again"

Errr.. No they aren't!

I mean they are obviously much better then during the worst of last year, but they are still pretty high compared to historical norms. It went back up to €52 this week and is at €42 today. To put that it context, over the last 5 years before the war, you would have been looking at a price more in the €10 to €20 range at this time of the year. Current gas prices are still 2 to 3 times higher then the past.

And of course it will get worse in time with carbon taxing on gas.

NOTE the above prices are from the Dutch exchange (mainland Europe), strictly speaking Ireland trades gas in the UK market, but the trends are largely the same.

cnocbui · 15-06-2023 6:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120718390#Comment_120718390

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/PNGASEUUSDM

From roughly 2011 through to 2015, the price of gas was higher than it currently is, and so on. It's at the same price as in June of 2021.

The price of gas is back down again.

bk · 15-06-2023 7:47pm

LOL, nice cropping there!

Though really what you want to be looking at is TTF:

And what you really want to be looking at is the TTF futures for the next few years versus historical e.g.:

June 2014: 14

June 2015: 20

June 2016: 13

June 2017: 15

June 2018: 23

June 2019: 11

June 2020: 3

June 2021: 25

June 2022: 87

June 2023: 24

June 2024: 53

June 2025: 42

June 2026: 33

June 2027: 28

June 2028: 26

June 2029: 30

June 2030: 32

June 2031: 35

June 2032: 36

While things have obviously greatly improved since last year, you can see that the futures market is pricing in significantly higher prices for the next 10 years versus the previous 10. In the 25 to 35's, versus more like the teens in the past 10 years. Basically for the rest of the rest of the 2020's, prices will be roughly double what they were for most of the 2010's.

Of course, this could change, a deepening European recession and possibly even world wide recession might drive prices down further, though obviously not for a good reason!

Of course all of this is mostly irrelevant, since you continue to ignore carbon pricing that will add to the end user price of gas!

marno21 · 16-06-2023 2:45am

What you need to look at even more is winter prices. The height of winter 2023/24 currently has futures at €57/MWh

This is when gas will be really needed and the storage will be put under pressure.

High seasonal prices are also bad news for manufacturing. Manufacturing isn’t really going to be interested in operating 6 months per year.

16-06-2023 11:59am

Ireland is the 13th most attractive country in the world for renewable energy investments, according to a survey by EY

On a normalised basis, we are 6th

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2023/0616/1389497-renewable-investment-survey/

You can view the EY report here

https://www.ey.com/en_gl/recai/will-local-ambition-fast-track-or-frustrate-the-global-energy-transition

Pete_Cavan · 16-06-2023 2:19pm

Interesting PIN on looking to reuse heat, presumably primarily from the incinerator;

Preliminary Market Consultation associated with Prior Information Notice for Dublin District Heating System Market Consultation June 2023

https://www.etenders.gov.ie/epps/pmc/viewPmc.do?resourceId=1865942

Phase 1 of the Project will initially be structured on the requirement to capture waste heat from industrial facilities on the Poolbeg peninsula and pipe it into homes and businesses in the Poolbeg, Ringsend and Docklands areas of Dublin city. The commercial structure of the JV will accommodate the future expansion of the district heating network, including both the build out of the network via expansion of the phase 1 network and the management/operation of nodes developed in other areas of the city.