Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Marmion definitely got a raw deal over the years, especially in the period when Murray's form went off a cliff.

You quoted my comment when you first replied. You know what i said. If you had said, yea his profile is rare in ireland BUT… you would have an argument. You didn’t.

It harder to get dropped from the Irish camp and get into it. It's 1 of the main reasons why we always under preform in the world cup. Players who lose form months out still getting a spot and it's happening again.

Kleyn and McCarthy are similar players. Treadwell is not.

McCarthy and Kleyn in the same squad would be weird.

This might be true but it's simply not how Farrell picks his squads. He picks the best players and figures out what to do with them afterwards.

That's why our first-choice lock pairing is Ryan and Beirne, neither of whom are true bulky tighthead locks, it's why our back-up openside is also our first-choice blindside, it's why JOB is the second-choice fullback despite playing most of his time on the wing, it's why he picks Bundee Aki on the bench when he has zero ability to cover anything other than 12.

Kleyn lost out to Treadwell because Treadwell is (based on best guesses) behind McCarthy in the pecking order.

Huh, he does the opposite. He has roles he wants and generally if you don’t fit he doesn’t pick you. That is most easily seen on the wing.

Ryan is the ‘big lock’. He does all the dirty stuff in the loose that that player is supposed to do. McCarthy would replace him. As would Henderson.

Beirne, Baird and Treadwell are on the same track.

If you look at a pack as a collection of roles, then that becomes pretty clear imo.

I think this is most clear on the wing. I don’t think he picked Lowe or Hanson over Balacoune because they are ‘better’. They obviously fit his roles better. There are lots of teams who would prefer balacoune.

edit: this might just be a philosophical thing. I just think modern rugby is such a system game that except for the absolutely elite in any system players, you are almost always picking for role.

Agreed! I like Treadwell and Kleyn. They both do different things. It's not surprising that Kleyn got called up with S.A. He's been in good form. Maybe, Farrell thinks Treadwell would be a good bench option?

Who knows the mindset in the coaching team. I think Farrell has a lot of credit with us, the supporters. How we do in France will be interesting. If we go tits up, this place will be bedlam.

In reality, the selection or non selection of Kleyn isn't a big factor, imo. Sexton being fit is probably the biggest area of concern.

I think a lot of people are writing off Treadwell, I think he has a good burst of speed and he carries well. He's a more athletic lock than Kleyn, and that suits the Irish game plan. We're not selecting locks for their size, we're selecting locks that are closer to tall athletic back rows than tall heavy front rows.

By the metric of when I watched him play in NZ I thought hey, this guy can carry well.

Do you have the stats of what carries he did for Ireland?

Doesn’t it matter in terms of why he is choosing them?

You said he chooses the best players and then plans around them. I’m saying he picks a way of playing and then mostly picks players to fit that.

I’d agree there is overlap in that the system you pick is influenced by the players you have.

Kleyn fits the system. He does as much of what Ryan can do as McCarthy can do. Or at least can do as much of it to a good standard. They just decided to go with McCarthy over him.

Edit; i’d also say that bigger and faster is a bigger determiner than ‘big left boot’ or ‘not a tidy winger’ for a lot of countries.

Kleyn does not fit the mold of forward that Farrell selects. Almost to a man, they are athletic, with good vision in attack and an ability to use the ball effectively, on top of all the expected nuts and bolts of play.

I heard Hansen on a podcast talking about how much of a bollocking he would get from Farrell at camp before he was up to speed defensively. There was clearly a very steep learning curve which Hansen obviously handled but listening to him it was clear that benchmarks are real and transparent and one assumes that if you don't meet them the coaches move on.

Eddie Jones talks about Ireland being the best defensive team in the world and that is a very important distinction. They are a great attacking team but defensively they are often unplayable, to the point where many of the scores against us are broken play chaos tries like the French one in the 6N. I guess you can see how good the system is when it breaks down, like in the first test in NZ. Anyhow, I could see how even exceptional players blot their copy book.

Yea, all those wingers fit the profile better than balacoune. Stockdale has the big left boot. Earls has played centre and is comfortable coming in. Nash has shown that this year at munster as well. It definitely looks like a type to me.

Coombes is a similar situation. Coombes plays more like Ryan in the loose than Doris or Conan. That’s not a really good back row fit for Ireland. Once you start jumbling up that stuff it does hurt cohesion.