Last night's BBC Panorama on Evs,what did you think?

reboot · 13-06-2023 7:28am #1

I found it interesting that the team chose what looked like a 7 seater VW to drive from England to Scotland ,just the driver on board.

No mention of the chaotic situation in N.Ireland, which is now being paid for, even though the programme was made by bbc NI ?

z80CPU · 13-06-2023 7:34am

You won't get a Prime Time investigates program like that OP in quality or coverage.

Might make those radio and tv adverts on RTE a bit too cringeworthy which they already are.

Glad the panorama program was made anyway.

fafy · 13-06-2023 7:47am

https://youtu.be/8YrMFSNU0lw

reboot · 13-06-2023 8:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120708064#Comment_120708064

Agreed

ondafly · 13-06-2023 9:22am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058300612/last-nights-bbc-panorama-on-evs-what-did-you-think

Looks to be the 5 seater version - 7 seat ID Buzz is long wheel base. Clearly just VW using the show for product placement. Lovely care none the less - if it wasn't so feckin expensive.

I enjoyed the show - felt it was a pretty good demonstration of the current issues people have with EVs in general.

13-06-2023 9:36am

ID Buzz is one of the least efficient EVs out there. Didn't watch the show but if the trip went well fair play to UK charging networks.

spudwiser · 13-06-2023 10:07am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120708510#Comment_120708510

It is also not at all representative of the types of EVs that are being bought at all in my opinion.

How much is the Buzz? €90k? Not at all what EVs are meant to be either.

joe1303l · 13-06-2023 10:17am

Only saw the 2nd half of the programme but it seemed informative. I.D Buzz wasn’t a great choice in terms of efficiency but it’s looks would have grabbed attention.

The takeaway was identical to the situation here; Modern EV’S are great but expensive + Public charging is a horror show. Public charging experience is exasperated by Multiple Apps, Accounts, Subscriptions etc. You need to have a driveway and be able to charge there at night if you don’t want hassle.

reboot · 13-06-2023 11:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120708510#Comment_120708510

Not quite,!

Stevie2001 · 13-06-2023 12:11pm

Funny how all these 1000km challenges and the like are never the real world they state they are, they take a real world 7 seater family car, but never any real world family in it, always a presenter or a friend and they chilled out, who travels 1000km with a friend lol

No real world 3 or 4 kids and moody wife, a baby who cried for 2 hours and just as it falls asleep, the range is getting low and you have to stop and charge, the little one then roars the place down as you have to stop and charge and you drag the kids to Supermacs to eat overpriced unhealthy rubbish at Circle K for the 40 min wait and you paid €60,000 for the privilege or whatever the ID Buzz costs

liamog · 13-06-2023 12:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120709257#Comment_120709257

Do you have many family members who'd be willing to sit with you for 10hrs on a drive to nowhere just to produce a video?

Fr Tod Umptious · 13-06-2023 1:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120708653#Comment_120708653

It is also not at all representative of the types of EVs that are being bought at all in my opinion.

But it could be argued that it's representative of the types of ICE that are on our roads that need to have a electric alternative that will make people switch.

We all know that EVs are great for shorter urban trips and home charging is a big seller.

You could make all the documentaries you like about Ioniqs getting charged at home, being used for a short commute or in a town or suburbs etc and it would paint a very different picture.

But what about bigger EVs, the equivalent of the people carriers that are so common with families up and down the country, that are also used for longer range holiday trips from time to time.

And as another poster said, throw a real family in that Buzz and it's a different story again.

They are the ones that have convince.

reboot · 13-06-2023 2:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120709257#Comment_120709257

Sounds like a Ken Loach film coming soon.

reboot · 13-06-2023 2:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120709733#Comment_120709733

Not to mention the Elephant over there. The EV weighing twice its ICE equivalent?

13-06-2023 3:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120710066#Comment_120710066

Twice sounds a bit heavy. A Tesla Model 3 RWD weight at about 1.75tons, which is perhaps 100 kg more than a diesel BMW 3 series. And a hybrid Beemer is 100 kg more at 1.85t. Apart from some additional resource use what's the problem with the weight anyway? You'll offset the resource weight penalty after a few tanks of liquid fuel has been pumped through an ICE car.

fafy · 13-06-2023 3:32pm

I’m getting a little annoyed with these slightly imbalanced EV programmes. After an initial period, most EV owners tend to adjust, and get better, at arranging charging around where they are going, have an account setup, know in advance which chargers are not working etc. Most of us have experienced broken chargers, but while its definitely an issue, needs a lot of improvement. its not all the time either.

In this programme, its like he was clueless, nothing setup in advance, or, a little unprepared, so hardly representitive, of a real world situation.

Then there is the default - 500/600km trip, which most of people do not do, on a daily basis, yet, its the sole focus, of many of these programmes.

Its like the various Radio/tv programmes i’ve seen here. The longer journeys Dublin to Kerry, Cork to Dublin, dominates everything, when in reality, for at least 50 % of people,(exceptions noted) it is an infrequent trip of 6 times per annum.

zg3409 · 13-06-2023 3:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120710382#Comment_120710382

It's the top gear equivalent of a car review. Head straight to a track with a million pound supercar a few burnouts and recommend the car with 5 stars.

These are typically 99% entertainment shows with journalists that don't know the topic in depth. If they can run out if juice or fake a break down then it makes great TV. 99% smooth trips and running cost savings don't work well on tv shows. Most "real" TV shows fake or stage most scenes and often say they will have a backup driver drive the car or car on a tow truck for safety with the star of the show reading a script and the crew trying to get all the pre planned camera shots of passing land marks etc.

For example on "don't tell the bride" the crew deliberately delayed delivery of a wedding dress just to create drama and wind up the bride.

reboot · 13-06-2023 4:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120710217#Comment_120710217

Just repeating what the nice journalist said on a recent TV program on EVS , .that everyone has an opinion on,which can't be bad. As long as they agree with my opinion,

reboot · 13-06-2023 4:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120710217#Comment_120710217

Maybe what's the problem? May lead down the road of bigger batteries and more fast chargers? What's wrong with that??

bruschi · 13-06-2023 4:40pm

it wouldnt be an interesting show if it showed how an awful lot of people just park at home, plug in and charge. And then that they only need to public charge every so often and it works seamlessly and people move on with no fuss. All the comparisons of "real life" people moan on both sides about of either it doesnt happen often or that they dont show the family and kids and the trials of that. We had to make a trip recently of over 600k return, about 3.5 hrs each way, with 3 kids. Had the option of using a diesel 7 seater or the EV. Chose the EV as it is a much more comfortable drive. We stopped on the way up but didnt charge, but the kids needed a break. We stopped on the way back again for a break and I charged it for a cost of €10 at an ionity (discounted) and that was our charging experience. We've regularly driven to Dublin and back (south Wexford) and not charged at all, but would have stopped to give the kids a break. People always make out like that you only have to stop if you have an EV and need to charge. Sometimes people just need a break and to stretch legs no matter what you drive.

EV's suit some people in certain situations, and in other ways they dont suit some. I do find the people who dont have an EV telling people with one that it is awkward and wont listen to being told that it isnt, frustrating. Overexaggerating issues that arent there for all EVs or trying to put conceived notions into situations that arent applicable to all. The program showed some small positives to it, but overall gave the same stereotypical negative view on range and other things. Anyone who has an EV generally gets their apps and charging points sorted when they get the car for future potential use. I've done over 20,000km in my EV and used a public charger 4 times. Thats not to say the charging network is good or fine, but its not the major issue some who dont have an EV try to portray it is.

crisco10 · 13-06-2023 4:50pm

Part way thru summer road trip with kids (2 and 4) for summer holiday in BEV. Currently near Southampton en route to France. Experience with public charging has been good so far, and yet again this summer (after driving 2.5k + km in France last summer), the car is not limiting us. The kids need to stop more often, and for longer than the car. And there is a large enough selection of chargers that we stop roughly when we want in the journey.

reboot · 13-06-2023 7:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120710714#Comment_120710714

Makes a lot of sense. I'm only ten years at this, but the only constant thing is change.Thanks.

reboot · 13-06-2023 7:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120710766#Comment_120710766

Good job you didn't holiday in N .Ireland. We've had ten years of chaos, which since the power company changed has moved to costly chaos,as things get worse. Sure Brexit will put things right.

the_amazing_raisin · 13-06-2023 7:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120710766#Comment_120710766

I had a similar experience driving across the UK by myself last year. 900km each way and I had to stop twice without charging just to take a break from driving

I'm probably not going to watch the documentary but if the lads had any trouble charging it's because they're idiots or went looking for problems

Markcheese · 13-06-2023 7:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120710544#Comment_120710544

A renault zoe is 1468 kg (number from wikipedia , didnt mention year or model) its based on the old clio platform ..

And the 2022 clio 5 ,tce 90 is down as 1276 kg ,

reboot · 13-06-2023 7:31pm

When I have to change my EV again,weight will be a Major consideration, problems over the past decade I've found have arisen around suspension, and steering , bearing issues, interestingly involving the Zoe,with MOT failure.

GTE · 13-06-2023 7:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120708510#Comment_120708510

I feel it could be worth distinguishing between EVs that are cars and EVs that are vans. My Passat GTE estate can hold about 1600 litres with the seats down. The Buzz can take 3900 litres.

If we compare like with like, the Buzz and the Merc EQV is an interesting comparison, albeit Summer for the Buzz and Winter for the Merc. The Buzz does 362km at 90kph from 77kWh whereas the EQV does 299km at 90kph from 84kWh,

The Buzz seems quite capable of consistent 184kW charging, should the mood take you.

Markcheese · 13-06-2023 9:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120711495#Comment_120711495

Wow , wouldnt have thought a couple of hundred kgs should make that much difference,

The renault 5 ev is expected to be around 1500kgs as well , surprised me I thought it'd be getting lighter

reboot · 13-06-2023 10:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120711528#Comment_120711528

As I'm sure you know,winter can mean lithium batteries loose 20% capacity, good old lead acids 40%.

I try to charge with ,Granny cable overnight at 10 Amps. The batteries were tested after 7 years and each cell was showing 98.5 % efficiency. Some fast charger Ive seen can charge at 160 Amps.

reboot · 14-06-2023 6:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120711466#Comment_120711466

I can quote several cases of CPs out of operation and intermittent faults for years in this part of the Island.Its widely known where to point fingers at the Idiots. History seems to be about to be repeated as some ouncils hold off on tendering, to get the highest bidder,delaying roll out of new tech.

14-06-2023 6:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120711495#Comment_120711495

There is good and bad designs and parts manufacturers out there. Some makes are better than others. But in general at a car design phase they don't just slap any random parts under a car and hope for the best but design in vehicle mass in mind.

reboot · 14-06-2023 6:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120712697#Comment_120712697

Do you think a design opportunity was sadly missed when EVs came along,the EV1was pretty nice looking all those years ago. It's a problem some say around various regulations, height of lights above ground,and safety regs etc.

I was hoping Tesla would seize the day and come up with outside the tin box design ideas,but hard to tell EV from ICE in car parks,apart from the badge. The original Tesla was a nice car,long before Musk had any involvement.

One project I noticed recently was from a Japanese university, an EV with No battery.

It drives along a road in which a cable is buried, the current is induced via the wires in the cars tyres.

munchkin_utd · 14-06-2023 7:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120710766#Comment_120710766

France has had a gigantic expansion of charging facilities in the past couple of years, 50% increase in the number of chargers just last year and it looks like that is going to continue this year again (/some of the chargers being installed at the end of last year should not be in place by now in advance of the summer tourist rush)

As for the program deliberately looking to make things look difficult, theres certainly an aspect that someone with a dozen RFID cards/ preloaded apps with registration already completed after years of Ev driving would have it easier than a first time newbie reporter - but - its still a valid illustration of the learning curve and potential glitches in charging using such a fractured charging offering plus someone on holiday in a more regionalised country like the UK or Germany or France will see far far more (new to them) operators as they travel across the country than in the likes of Ireland.

reboot · 14-06-2023 8:13am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120712834#Comment_120712834

Good points we'll made,as for Newbie reporter,I'd assume Panorama have a reasonable budget, a team of researchers, not to mention Seamous the cameraman from just up our road.

France and Norway seem to have got their act together,with the Frence government buying 20,000 Zoes.

In the beginning Ireland was thought to be an ideal island for an EV project. Sadly with too little money in the hands of too few Civil servants , a lack of technical knowledge, and a power company who saw EVs as a pain, as they were not making anything out of it, ten years were lost.

How things have changed.?

munchkin_utd · 14-06-2023 8:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120712918#Comment_120712918

I'd also say, even if the reporter were to have done preparation and research in advance like a ninja Ev owner, you would have a video clip of him filling in online forms to get RFID cards sent to him, with a video of the postman delivering it a week or 2 later, or sitting on a computer working out a myriad of potential charging points and their operators, cross checking that with any services he has signed up for, and if necessary then (on camera) signing up for whatever scottish or north of england operators on the app/ website

That still doesnt make the damn thing any more usable.

14-06-2023 9:00am

All this planning ahead, lotto to see if you have the right RFID/app/payment method to charge etc. should have made to go away 10 years ago.

It's a night and day diffence compared to the Tesla experience: Just plug in and you don't need to press any more than the charge port opening button conveniently located on the charging plug. Driving everywhere in Continental Europe is just so easy on a Tesla. Really looking forward heading over to Finland next month on the Model 3. Just decide the destination and let the car sort it all out.

Stevie2001 · 14-06-2023 10:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120712971#Comment_120712971

I was watching EV review Ireland and he went to the UK, arrived at the fast charger and went to download the app and it was blocked by appstore, as he wasn't from UK, had to ring helpline, only a bot

It's way too complicated, all the different suppliers, all different apps

Stevie2001 · 14-06-2023 10:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120709288#Comment_120709288

I'm sure a TV programme by the BBC can pay the family something, free trip to legoland or the like.

At least it would be realistic and very funny, all the apps, cards, roaring kids, chargers out of use, would be a good show :)

reboot · 14-06-2023 10:36am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120712971#Comment_120712971

We didn't know how peaceful life was,when that new fangled wireless came in,after The Cats Whisker.Sure you could get Athlone on a piece of wet string!

reboot · 14-06-2023 10:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713396#Comment_120713396

Saw one recently repeated on Ch5,did just that.

reboot · 14-06-2023 10:39am

The Fifth gear EV series seems to have disappeared?

FishOnABike · 14-06-2023 11:05am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713377#Comment_120713377

It should be a condition of granting planning permission for a charging station that it should accept standard debit/credit card and contactless payment for charging.

There should be no need to register, download an app or wait for a charging network specific card to be sent in advance.

liamog · 14-06-2023 12:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713656#Comment_120713656

Good news, it's already a requirement in the UK where the particular TV show was filmed. Previously deployed chargers are grandfathered in but will need to be updated eventually.

Card payments are a bit of a weird one on chargers, as an interim solution they are absolutely needed, but longer term everyone is planning for ISO15118 which will allow charging memberships to be installed on the car, and then every billing transaction be processed seamlessly by plugging in the charging cable, similar to the way Tesla superchargers operate.

I would rather see charging regulations that force a charge point operator to have ISO15118 compliance than a card reader.

reboot · 14-06-2023 1:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713895#Comment_120713895

Have I read Lidl have their own system?

Plasmoid · 14-06-2023 1:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713895#Comment_120713895

Sounds good in theory, but as an owner of a Kia I'm not sure I'll ever use Kia Charge given it's pricing. Unless regulations also force car manufacturers to allow any membership to be installed on the car I see it continuing to be an issue.

But then also I don't see existing EVs being included in any new regulations - who's going to pay for updates/retrofits? I'd rather see card readers as first priority, even if only a stop-gap to better solutions.

FishOnABike · 14-06-2023 2:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713895#Comment_120713895

I wouldn't be in favour of having to install charging memberships on a car. It's an unnecessary level of indirection that will still need pre registration, one (or more) memberships associated with a vehicle, association of memberships with payment methods, will facilitate price gouging by middlemen and complicate payment for charging multi user cars.

I can't see the advantage over simply plugging in and using my existing debit/credit card or phone to pay.

zg3409 · 14-06-2023 3:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713544#Comment_120713544

https://www.fifthgear.tv/

They only put out so many episodes per year, probably all filmed over the course of a week.

I think they have an official YouTube channel too.

Touch to pay by card is only on newer UK chargers and still not on slower AC chargers. As a result it's hit and miss. Sometimes credit card payments are more expensive than their own app, and less reliable meaning there is a need for both. Public charging us generally better in UK than ROI and NI but still lots to be done. At one stage in the UK there was a statistic that at any time 20% of public chargers are broken, now the devil is in the detail but when I was in the UK I saw broken DC chargers and single chargers at motorway services.

liamog · 14-06-2023 4:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120714627#Comment_120714627

Plug&Charge allows you to drive up to a charger, plug in a cable and then walk away. It's replacing one set of middlemen (payment processors) with another set of middlemen and drastically improving the user experience.

For card payments to work, a payment processor has to place a hold on enough funds to cover a potential full charge. Once the charge is complete they processor then needs to make a call to the Visa/Mastercard network and request the funds. You've now got the Charge Point Operator (CPO), the Payment Processor, the Payment Network and the Bank, all involved with a transaction for you to charge your car.

With ISO15118 the CPO bills the mobility service provider (MSP) for your charge. Through your relationship to the MSP, you are billed once. This reduces the transactions between the Payment Processor, Payment Network, and Bank to once per month instead of once per charge.

I watched a recent interview regarding charging infrastructure. The fee's for payment processing and the hardware required were a significant operating cost which is ultimately passed on to the consumer as a price per kWh.

14-06-2023 4:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120714914#Comment_120714914

The Tesla model immediately charges the session from a payment card. Wonder if they have special rates for card transactions? In their case if you have no balance on the card after they attempt to charge you after the session completes, the car won't charge on the Superchargers until the latest payment has gone through.

liamog · 14-06-2023 4:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120714967#Comment_120714967

Tesla are charging after the session meaning they can skip the hold funds stage. They're also likely sucking up some of the transaction costs as their business model so far hasn't required Superchargers to make a profit. They can use funds from the rest of the business to grow the network and won't stuggle if a given site is breaking even. Whereas for the likes of EasyGo they need to be making money from selling charging services to grow their network.

FishOnABike · 14-06-2023 9:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120714914#Comment_120714914

I don't see how that is significantly better than paying by credit card and paying my credit card bill once a month.

The charger will still have to interact with the mobility service provider for each charging transaction.

All I see is that it is replacing the card payment processor with a mobility service provider with the disadvantages that it's another thing that I would need to register for and it has no other use, unlike my debit a credit card.

If I can tap my debit or credit card for a €2.50 pay and display parking ticket, the % overhead for €40 or so charging cost shouldn't be a problem.

Will the mobility service provider automatically work with all chargers / charger companies in Ireland, UK and European mainland? Will their cost per transtion be less than the current card transaction cost?

How quickly will the MSP update details when the car ownership changes?

If more than one person drives the car how is billing for charging split by usage?

Will the MSP advance me a month (or nearly two) charging costs on the presumption the bill will be paid or will a car owner need to have a deposit like some utilities?

What happens when ownership changes if the previous owner has an outstanding MSP bill? Will the new owner be able to charge their car?

As far as I can see it's adding a lot of potential complexity and issues for no real benefit.

Last night's BBC Panorama on Evs,what did you think?

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