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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I wouldn't disagree with you that he had a good few weeks out there, definitely had a few impactful carries and seemed busy when he came onto the field. He's clearly a guy who understands Farrell's systems, and can plug into it relatively seamlessly.

    Off the back of that, he was in the squad in November - he sat on the bench against SA, coming on for Beirne after 63 mins and was relatively poor. He had 4 carries for 2m, made 4 tackles but missed 2 and wasn't overly impactful. He started the following week against Fiji, in what was a poor team performance that seemed to have impacted the future prospects of both Robert Baloucoune and Joey Carbery (as both haven't returned to an Ireland squad since), and was okay, not great again, and replaced after 49 mins.

    He wasn't selected the following week against Australia, as Joe McCarthy came onto the bench to make his debut, and McCarthy was then selected ahead of him for the 6 Nations squad before injury intervened.

    So, his relatively poor performances this year haven't just come in an Ulster shirt.

    I'm surprised he made the 42 man squad, don't believe he deserved it, but equally wouldn't be losing sleep over it.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    We'll be better coached and more disciplined than Tonga albeit they'll definitely pick up plenty of scores in their pool games.

    My bigger concern is the physicality of the game so early on in the tournament. I personally wouldn't have Sexton near that one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    If we need a 38 year old out half to beat Tonga, we may as well pack up and go home



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,840 ✭✭✭ionadnapokot


    Yea and then that means 6 consecutive games for Sexton if they are to play in a WC final!

    They didnt even try to push him in 2019 v Jap because he was nursing a groin injury. He's out injured again with another groin injury.

    Looks like the back-ups start v Romania and full strength thereafter.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    We're not going to go full completely full strength against Tonga and they'll be desperately hoping they get the breathing space to get what first stringers they do pick off early I'd guess.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,840 ✭✭✭ionadnapokot


    If I recall correctly you said the something similar at the last WC. Deriding that I even suggested that we would have a battle on our hands v Japan!

    Make no mistake this time.

    We may not need the complete starting XV but it will have to be very close to it for the Tonga match.

    The big question is of course Sexton. How he recovers from his injury and how Farrell can manage him.

    Who would you select at 10 and 22 v Tonga?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Yup, I was wrong.

    I'm not arguing whether we should or not, but saying I highly doubt they will. Full strength for 6 games in a row seems unlikely, especially given at least some of them will be needed for the bench against Romania also.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,931 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    I think that Ulster selection procedures have reverted to putting all the names on bits of paper and throw them all down the stairs. The top 15 start, the bottom 8 are on the bench...or perhaps they have dug the Ouija Board of Selection beloved of Les Kiss and his back up of reading chicken entrails. No one really comprehends what goes on. The entire abandonment of developing promising academy players over the last 5 or 6 years is shocking. They never get a chance. Rarely or never get a game with the team and then are deemed surplus and failures, a status with which we have no proof one way or another.

    Treadwell to me is a very skilled, athletic lock despite the very casually negative dismissal of him on Boards. Henderson is a sicknote. O'Connor is very average but a trier. Izzy has been injured and then ignored. Despite this negativity and everyone agrees that Ulster had a poor season, yet they still fimished the normal league in second place ahead of everyone but Leinster. A few other second rows over the years were basically sidelined. The greatest 'crime' however is the bizarre scheme that seems to be 'ignore some very talented backs and something will turn up.' Give it to McCloskey only works when there are actual plays. Mickey Mouse could coach those guys to more success.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,984 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    I think it's possible that some players have the capability to flourish at test level, but for whatever reason, the systems or the dynamics within the team just don't bring out their best qualities at club level.

    Treadwell is no world beater but he's looked very capable any time I've seen him in green. You often hear players dismissed because "anyone would look good playing in that Leinster team" - so surely the opposite must be true, if Ulster are struggling for form, then it must bleed through into individual performances?

    I know it riles people up but this is why it's so unbelievably critical for players to do well in Ireland camp, it levels out all the effects of which province you play for or even where you stand in the pecking order at your own province.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,471 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    I think this season, in which they have been poorly coached, has really coloured your take on the last five or six years. There's been issues with Rea this season, but Stewart and Sheridan have broke through, McCann really kicked on the last few months, Postlethwaite has started to surface. NOt brilliant, but not the litany of doom that has been suggested,



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  • Subscribers Posts: 41,590 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Tonga is 'any win' will do type of game.

    The starting team should be strong and we should be good enough to pull away in the end when the bench come son.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,840 ✭✭✭ionadnapokot


    Ok! Fair enough. I do agree it is unlikely. It's a risky strategy one way or the other.

    And prob within the pack there is scope to pick outside the starting 1-8.

    For the record:

    I dont like the idea of Sexton starting v Tonga. Or the idea of Byrne starting v Tonga. And right now I also don't like the idea of Crowley starting!

    I'm intrigued with only one thing for the warm up matches. Who Farrell selects at 10 in each of them.

    Samoa could well be the dress rehearsal for Tonga. Personally I hope he starts Crowley v Samoa and he has a stormer.

    Gun to head - Sexton v Tonga but hopefully Crowley is the magic bullet.

    Post edited by ionadnapokot on


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,449 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Just have the players wear a a rainbow armband. Half the Tongan team won't want to touch them

    Post edited by AbusesToilets on


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,840 ✭✭✭ionadnapokot


    You've given me an idea for the match thread. Rainbow - Zippy, George and the gang



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    I was thinking that myself, now I don't know how accurate the Ulster website is, but it has the following season stats if you click into each player's info on the squad list: (seniors only, nothing on academy players) https://ulster.rugby/teams/men/squad-list

    I think this is a good comparison, players in the same team in the same position, because players in other teams and positions may have totally different systems and success levels.

    I really don't know why O'Connor is favoured over Treadwell, perhaps Treadwell was missing for parts of the season with Ireland and with injury maybe. O'Connor may be a better lineout operator despite being a bit smaller, but I don't know.

    Alan O'Connor: Minutes-1109, Tries-2, Metres (73) per carry (87)-0.84, Turnovers conceded-6, Tackles-129/137, Success-94.16%.

    Kieran Treadwell: Minutes-718, Tries-1, Metres (103) per carry (84)-1.23, Turnovers conceded-3, Tackles-100/106, Success-94.34%.

    Sam Carter: Minutes-698, Tries-3, Metres (114) per carry (84)-1.36, Turnovers conceded-3, Tackles-116/126, Success 92.06%.

    Iain Henderson: Minutes-294, Tries-0, Metres (23) per carry (29)-0.79, Turnovers conceded-1, Tackles-62/68, Success 91.18%.

    Izuchukwu and Bradshaw-Ryan had very few minutes each, and for academy minutes there aren't any stats available on the Ulster website that I could find.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    We won't be full strength for the Tongan game but I don't think we'll be a million miles off. I'd say we could see very close to our first choice 23 with some lads rotating to the bench.

    This will be Tonga's tournament opener and they're going to be coming out of the traps as hard as they can. They've spent the last few years building everything up to this tournament, bringing multiple players in who were capped by Australia/NZ.

    Something along the lines of Porter, Sheehan, Bealham, Ryan, Henderson, Doris, VDF, Conan, Murray, Crowley, JOB, Aki, Ringrose, Hansen, Keenan wouldn't surprise me at all.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    You'd have to assume if they're not insane that they are really targeting the Scottish match though?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    Realistically, if they're to get out of the group they'll have to beat two of us, South Africa and Scotland



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Get third and at least they wouldn't have to qualify again though. And Scotland would which would be hilarious.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,449 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Cause our pool wasn't enough of a knife fight to begin with



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Sound, I presume these are compiled from I individual match pass and carry stats?

    Cos the Munster side has headline stats for Kleyn as 832m off 183 carries, for 4.6m / carry.

    Which seems like it could be off, to be fair.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    That would be sensible but there's also a PR element where they'll have a big occasion against the potential top ranked side in the world to open their account.

    They also then have an 8 day break until Scotland which works out nicely for them (for once) so I'd expect them to go pretty full strength in both. They'll be eliminated by the time they face Romania in their final game but will probably still be able to rotate and win that one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,561 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    The world cup is a full squad tournament. Every player will play a role. Tonga do look strong and will present a tough physical encounter. But so will Scotland and S.A. there has to be some movement in and out of the matchday squads.

    In 2019, we were a team low on confidence, with no real strategy except plan A. I don't think this will be a similar experience this year. I expect to see rotation and for the side not to fall off.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yeah, from the individual match stats and aggregated.

    I don't know the source of that Kleyn stat, but it looks utterly nonsensical. Back three players over the course of a full season would be around the 800m - 1000m level, and Coombes had very high numbers this year (600m +), but there is absolutely no way whatsoever Kleyn carried for 832m.

    I don't have access to the file atm where I have these stats, but even a quick sense check of the URC stats page and the European Champions Cup stats page gives a strange number of 192m (comprising 176m in URC and 16m in the European Cup) - I also think these numbers are wrong and have found both sites unreliable at times, but they're still a lot closer to the count I have than a simply mental number of 832m.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,988 ✭✭✭leakyboots


    Do ye not remember the two tried he ran in from half way and his own 22 earlier on in the season?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Just to confirm - I rechecked this number by looking at the Munster match stats again and got the exact same outcome. His carry stats on the season were 183 carries, yielding 296m.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    He might have carried the ball from his house to Thomond



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    As much as I love a stat, therein lies the problem, and double so if you’re comparing the same stat from different sources…



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Well the match stats are there and have some visibility to them and can be sense checked.

    I've noticed some really strange stats on both the URC and European Cup sites before with individual stats that don't seem logical.

    I've no idea whatsoever where a stat claiming carry metres of 832m comes from - that sounds ludicrous and patently isn't the case. Only players in the Munster squad this season who would have had that level or higher would be Nash, Haley and Daly.

    Can I ask where you saw the 832m stat?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030




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