Where do Irish professional rugby players come from?

Yeah agree if you are good enough Leinster will pick you and the real rugby fans don't care about social class.

However, whether we like it or not some people are more snobby than sports fans.

That's the way some humans are. Climb the social status ladder and whether we like it or not Rugby has this reputation. It can put some people off so as real fans we need to understand their frustrations rather than dismissing them.

Thats a completely bizarre take.. are you on a wind up?

Yes schools are picking 12/13 year olds based on sporting potential when that doesnt have huge relevance to ability when theyre older

Not at that age I wouldn’t think.

Regardless some of these schools have 200+ pupils in a year - any “recruits” are going to comprise a tiny proportion of that year

Parents and schools are making that decision. Do you think Michaels outstanding ability to produce professional rugby players is just because of coaching? And if other schools at the same coaching they'd get the same results

In fairness...did you not say something along the lines of

The professional sport having a high percentage of players from private schools doesn't make it elitist

Then went on to list all the advantages private schools have jn terms of coaching, facilities etc etc

Saying its not elitist and then listing all the reasons it is seems inconsistent

I thought that would have cognitive dissonance written all over it?

No I would regard elitism as picking an inferior player from an “elite” background over a better player from a less salubrious background out of prejudice etc

I was speaking to the “Kilkenny effect” if you will as at these schools where the pupils are steeped in it from a young age and there’s a culture and years of experience of involvement in rugby imbued in the school and in the families of the pupils. That’s nothing to do with the school being fee paying or rugby, could be any sport. Many coaches e.g Peter Smyth in Blackrock who was v successful coach was a former pupil and teacher in the school as are many of the coaches in these schools.

I would contend those factors are more important in fostering rugby development. You don’t get that kind of success from facilities alone (though facilities help they’re not the be all and end all as I said above).

Don’t really see how there’s anything dissonant in that

We will have to agree to differ so

I'm not a fantasist btw, I don't have a problem with it, it's the way it has and always has been in many sports and probably always will be

You are an elite in some sense of the word if you attend Blackrock or Pres or Christians or Clongowes etc unless you are comparing that cohort to another fee paying private school cohort...you get better connections, better facilities, better resources etc etc that a larger cohort doesn't and that's true of a lot of other sports too...your chances are simply better, you have the opportunity to develop quicker and the opportunity to be in the right place at the right time etc than someone like I was mullocking away in a CBS in the arsehole of nowhere....I'm not saying I could have been a contender (in fact it's probably fair to say I definitely wouldn't have been) but I would have had a greater chance but actual talented players in the same cohort as me would have had their chances greatly increased.

Of course it's elitism , again no problem with it, that's the way of the world....

We are getting into a nature/nurture argument here. People tend to overestimate the role of genetics in this stuff. Don't get me wrong, it's definitely a component to athletic success, but environment, habit and confidence are easily as decisive. I've seen it numerous times in coaching that the kid with absolutely zero skill, who can't casually kick a ball at 6 or 7 years old, can become a standout player ten years later. In a different world Doris is just a lanky awkward kid and the guy next door who gave up sport at 12 is a world cup winner. The difference is often structure and a kid being given guard rails to operate within.

i dunno how true it still is but it used to be the case in the NHL that the majority of Canadian players were born January - April. Age-grade hockey leagues in Canada are based on calendar year - at younger ages a year (or almost a year) can make a big physical difference - the 'older' players can stand out and get picked for rep teams - get better coaching etc, - develop more - become pro

im sure if someone were to look into it there would be similar trends found in other sports.

Soccer is quite different to rugby yjough. I would be very surprised any schools DOR has any list of kids from kids who've just finished playing their last year of mini rugby/first year of 15 a side full pitch rugby.

They do run camps but thats for incoming first years those already enrolled in the school.

Skehan talked about it in an article a few years back. as a school they looked at their coaching standards upskilled as a whole school. put in structures and then when players progressed to pro rugby they filtered a lot of what they were learning in that environment back to the school and it kept the numbers coming through to the pro game

Hmm... the school may be the lesser influence than the parents. I know parents who think their kid is suited rugby and pay the extra cash to go private. In my own case, my son prefers other sports so I thought it may not be worth the squeeze and the commute.

However, if I did think he had an interest in rugby I would have more inclined to send him that direction (if he wanted to go).

In your list there you left out that Carberry, Doris came a long way to play for rock. Those lads could have also gone to plenty of other schools nearby.

Well your anecdotal evidence is your's and mine is mine. What would it take for you to change your mind?

They wouldn't have 6 lads in their 23 man squads that height. Maybe 3. However if you go to the B or C team for some these schools you see another 2 or 3.

But that follows widening the playing base as much as possible and keeping rules around player movement into schools. so you can have a strong club player who could be the glue to a team staying together and then you have provincial/regional coaches through provincial squads and the new centres of excellence for the player to get the extra high level training needed.

Totally agree ref: the coaching, it's excellent. But, I do not believe it's all nurture. What about my point that parents who want to choose the right school for their kids -are more likely to send their kid to a rugby school if the kid shows an interest in rugby? If that's the case, you are more likely to have a better average set of rugby genes in the students compared to a random set.

All the schools do have the advantage of having all players on site getting same training while smaller schools/clubs players training beyond what they get from shane horgan can vary so much.

It is much better than before and a significant proportion of clubs now in the cities now field u13-18 teams whereas in Dublin(in particiular) they stopped after minis and started back up at u19/20/21

Its not so much harder for the Frawleys, Sean O Brien, Peter Dooleys as these guys would stand out anywhere but its the guys from youths background fighting for maybe position 28 of a squad of 28 that will find it harder.

100% agree.

Props also more likely to come from rural background and have some farmer genes and of course Andrew Porter!