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Hundreds Feared Drowned In Migrant Boat Sinking

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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,328 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    So, European citizens give trillions to the African countries ?

    some of the most verifiably endemically corrupt and miserable countries on the planet are African..what’s going to happen if the EU and it’s citizens start writing 7/8 or 9 figure cheques of EU citizens money ?

    all of a sudden you think you’ll see world class hospitals, world class public transport systems, other world class amenities popping up there and the tide of immigrants into the EU halted ? Would you fûck…

    you’d see SFA of that nature…. The money would be syphoned off into the hands of politicians, criminals, bent royal families and enablers….

    giving corrupt people money and expecting them not to do corrupt things with it ? Ok, best of luck with that. Like giving a drunk a bottle of scotch and expecting it to be unopened the following day.

    the continent has been called out for corruption by….. the EU, the UN, The OECD, Transparency International, I could go on….



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭Jack Daw


    Billions of Aid has been sent to Africa and sadly it hasn't made much difference.

    I'm all for Europe paying to improve Africa as a continent and improving its infrastructure, education etc like the Marshall plan and I think it would be a good idea but I think the only way it would work (due to the corruption levels in most African countries) would be if the countries giving the aid were in charge of what was done with the money and of course then they'll be accused of colonialism if they do that.

    I'd be all for pumping Africa full of contraceptives to stop people having far too many children they cannot provide a decent life for but that would probably be considered racist by a lot of people and won't be allowed to happen.

    The fact is most African countries have been independent for over 50 years now, if they can't run themselves even somewhat competently in that time then who's fault is it.

    The fact that governments in Africa seem to not have been able to work out by now that if you have a non temperate climate that makes food production more difficult then it is not a good idea to have a continually increasing population. You have countries like Ethiopia and Kenya where the population has increased 5 fold in the last 50 years despite it clearly not being able to sustain such a population.Surely the United Nations (if it has any purpose at all) would have been able to introduce large scale contraceptive programmes in the last 50 years to help stop people having children they can't give an even half decent life to.





  • Ireland joined the EU fifty years ago, and the only reason we're so developed is because we're part of the EU. Without the EU, we'd still be a catholic-nationalist backwater.

    Developed countries STILL exploit Africa for natural resources. Elon Musk gets most of his lithium from the DRC from child exploitation. Nestle get their coffee and cocoa beans through slavery.

    They may be independent countries but the exploitation never stopped.



  • Registered Users Posts: 171 ✭✭200mg


    Best not tell the poster what China is upto in Africa. Some of these places may default soon and become Chinese vassal.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,483 ✭✭✭✭fritzelly



    Some women and children on board is what was said, 750ish on board, mostly men rescued, so more likely 99% men and maybe a few women and kids - reality is everyone has seen boats disembarking and you would be lucky to see a woman amongst them

    But the emphasis is always put on some women and children when they are a miniscule part of the problem and in reality it's men looking to get in to Europe for the opportunities and money



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  • Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    This is as bad as alt right arguments that the US slavery was fine because someone did it first.

    Europe and the US both had the choice, and made the choice, to abolish the slave trade. Why would protectionism be any different or be excused by someone did it first. It's a bit like we both came across the same comatose woman behind a dumpster and have been having a good go at her ever since just because other people were there doing it before we shoved them off. It doesn't make anything about it right. Protectionism creates an engineered inequality and system of exploitation we are always at liberty to abolish.



  • Registered Users Posts: 913 ✭✭✭thegame983


    If you are pro illegal immigration into Europe via the Mediterranean you just have to accept that these kind of incidents are going to happen.

    A few mass drownings, a few mass stabbings. It's all part of the package.



  • Registered Users Posts: 171 ✭✭200mg


    No one said it was right but if we look for reparations they will keep going back and back until you get to the first civilisation. I mean where to I get my Viking reparations. Or Norman for example.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,483 ✭✭✭✭fritzelly



    But they would have to go their legally and be allowed in to the country with skills needed...



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I didn't see anyone mention it as reparations. The Marshall Plan wasn't reparation money, it was money the US invested in Europe to rebuild it after WW2 because a) it was the right thing to do and b) it was really good business and c) we already has a cold war policy of opposing communism. It was also not free from accusations it was imperialism. But sure what would the alternative been if we had not done that though either: a massive, massive influx of refugee and migration charter ships from Europe to the United States, people whose economies were buried under rubble. Its natural for people to flock from areas of instability to areas of stability.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 171 ✭✭200mg


    I get that but Africa is not all wasteland there are some really nice places someone already pointed out. The issue is they would never get in. It seems to be a Western Ideal to fix the worlds issues. Were most other places tend to be ambivalent or outright hostile to each other. See Asian countries attitudes towards anyone dark. Or even White people. Try and say Japanese are pretty similar to Chinese either will give you short shrift on that one. Japan for example got off pretty well after ww2 refused to pay reparations and alike. Seems it's Europe that needs to pay up for Africa. Japan not so much to China. Or anywhere else they took during the war. No one seems to be chasing after the Mores or the Ottomans. The Romans, Greeks the list goes on. You have to live in the here and now. Africa has had plenty of time to get it's self in order They just don't seem to be able for what ever reason. I mean look at South Africa after apartheid Still corrupt. Somalia invasion of Ethiopia for example. It's not just the lines on a map after WW2 that's an Issue even if they were not redrawn they would have gone back to infighting.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I get that but Africa is not all wasteland there are some really nice places someone already pointed out. The issue is they would never get in. It seems to be a Western Ideal to fix the worlds issues.

    Well we exploit the world's riches. And in the process cause a lot of the worlds issues, like energy wars, iran-contra, and picking and choosing warlords to ensure cheap access to raw materials and goods.

     No one seems to be chasing after the Mores or the Ottomans. The Romans, Greeks the list goes on. 

    Again, this isn't about 'reparations' you aren't hearing me.

     Africa has had plenty of time to get it's self in order They just don't seem to be able for what ever reason.

    Yeah, endless foreign interventionism, imperialism, and protectionism can have that effect, but whatever right.



  • Registered Users Posts: 171 ✭✭200mg


    I think it's better we agree to disagree on this. No offence meant.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭Jack Daw



    And who is allowing the exploitation to happen?

    Nobody can force the DRC to use child labour in it's cobalt mines.They as a country have decided to allow this to happen.

    Ireland made it's first great leap forward as a country under Lemass, that was prior to joining the EU , so your point about the EU isn't really true at all.





  • Lemass is a candidate for top five...perhaps a discussion for another thread...



    "You want our cobalt? let's get that out to you as cheaply as possible, through child labour, so the government can gobble up the money"

    I've never said African countries aren't corrupt hence why I want DIRECTLY FUNDED AND OVERSEEN infrastructure.

    At the moment, China are just giving them the money in the hope they default on their debt.

    I want the EU to invest in Africa and MAKE SURE AND OVERSEE THE MONEY GOES WHERE INTENDED.

    Have you read anything I've written in this thread?



  • Registered Users Posts: 170 ✭✭WheelieKing


    Is the correct answer.

    The "will somebody think of the women and children" angle is a well versed propaganda tool used by evil NGO's.



  • Registered Users Posts: 72 ✭✭thoker




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,948 ✭✭✭Cordell


    I'm not sure you realise that what you want is basically some sort of Apartheid era South Africa extended all over that continent.



  • Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    Of course you can they completely crippled the countries stability, the US is absolutely at fault in Libya.



  • Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    It wouldnt be a bad shout they cant drowned in a boat crossing if there are no boats, I watched a documentary about the Irish navy out there helping out and they were coming across these vessels sinking or sunk and its horrendous stuff nearly none of em can swim and they just panic and start pushing other people under the water in order to stay afloat.. Be far easier to manage if they were kept on land and atleast they would be alive instead of being exploited by the scum that send em out on dodgy vessels alot of the time without even enough fuel to make the crossing.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 893 ✭✭✭Emblematic


    Another advantage is that some initial checks of identity and asylum claim validity could be done before they board the transport.

    One problem is that it would be difficult to set up such an operation in unstable countries like Libya.

    But, yes, something like this should be looked at to combat the people traffickers.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,282 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    I really cannot understand why this is deemed to be the EU’s fault because it does not provide “safe pathways to protection”.

    There is a process and pathway, but people chose to bypass it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭sonar44


    It’s precisely because the Irish Navy and others are there that unseaworthy vessels with no ability to actually cross are deployed. The aim is to force a rescue by any means, including sinking the ship.

    It's just a discussion. Something more important is bound to come along.



  • Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    They d be deployed regardless, the traffickers aren't gonna shut up shop because the Irish navy aren't there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,099 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Well arguably we are partially responsible for some of the ills of Africa - remember that Irish people participated in the empires that controlled parts of Africa, particularly the British Empire.

    Then morally we have some responsibility to Nigeria and other territories where we sent many priests on the African Missions to convert them. Think of the Black Babies and all the priests working out there in the 1950s/60s/70s. There's many a Nigerian with Irish Christian type names.

    But we have few links or ties with Islamic states and no need to import them here imho.



  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭sonar44


    There is no viable business model for traffickers that cannot ever deliver the people looking to cross. Why would anyone pay for it?

    It's just a discussion. Something more important is bound to come along.



  • Registered Users Posts: 475 ✭✭delusiondestroyer


    They take the money then send you out on the "vessel" whether the passengers make it to there destination is irrelevant to them.

    Desperation for a better life will always bring people to pay for even the chance of a better life else where, why do you think the boats are always wedged full even after so many have sunk and drowned.



  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭sonar44


    I assume they are wedged because statistically, the overwhelming majority get to the other side and create a chain effect. In other words, the current environment and business model that encourages this kind of fiasco, in the main works.

    If the Irish navy and a thousand others join in, it will work even better and more people will be encouraged to engage traffickers.

    It's just a discussion. Something more important is bound to come along.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,203 ✭✭✭Patrick2010


    According to a Syrian refugee living in Germany he paid 4500 dollars for his wife to travel. Given the estimated 400 to 750 on the boat that’s an income of 1.8 to 3.3 million for the traffickers



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭tesla_newbie


    All true but that doesn’t in anyway negate the involvement of various NGO,s in an international people smuggling operation,many in our dail support these people smugglers



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