"Experienced" drivers lacking knowledge or rules of the road

deravarra · 16-06-2023 10:42am #1

First off, I would never suggest that I am the best or most perfect driver, and I have had a share of times where I made a wrong judgement call. I always hold my hand up, and would be open to correction if my driving faults were pointed out to me.

Lately, I have noticed that quite a lot of people do not know how to use a roundabout.

Prime example this morning was a four exit roundabout, coming up the Dublin Road beside the Park Hotel in Mullingar. There was a car stopped ahead of me, and the car was on the right hand side of the road. I went to the left of the car, as the rules of the road suggest.

"If you’re following the road ahead, (2nd exit), you would normally position towards the left, or stay in the left-hand lane, however you need to be guided by road signs/markings. You would have no signal on approach, however when you reach the centre point of the 1st exit, you would signal left, to let other traffic know that you are leaving at the next exit."

and

"If you’re taking the road leading to the right, (3rd exit), you would normally position just left of the centre line, or select the right-hand lane, however you need to be guided by road signs/markings. You would signal right on approach, however when you reach the centre point of the 2nd exit, you would signal left, to let other traffic know that you are leaving at the next exit."

When moving off from the roundabout, I maintained lane discipline and exited at 12 o'clock from ingress. I noted that the car which was to my right made their egress from the roundabout at the same exit.

I parked up at a local supermarket where the owner of the car which had been on the right hand side of the roundabout approached my car, and said that I had made a dangerous manouevre, overtaking them on the roundabout. I asked him what lane he was in, and what lane I was in, and he remonstrated that those in the left lane should only turn left, which was incorrect - as there is no road signage or markings to show this, nor are there road markings or signage to show that those on the right lane are allowed go straight ahead.

I was willing to discuss the rules of the road, and also allow them to point out where, if I was, wrong. Unfortunately, no such discussion was had.

If circumstances were different and this gentleman had approached another individual in the same manner they approached me, things could have been so much different. I was more pre-occupied with thoughts of whether or not we'd have rain today, and whether my planned barbequeue could go ahead.

Vizzy · 16-06-2023 10:57am

What makes you think that he was an "experienced" driver.

Maybe he only passed his test last week.

I agree,though, that a lot of people have no clue in relation to negotiating a 3 exit( or more) roundabout

deravarra · 16-06-2023 11:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120721807#Comment_120721807

He did mention that he was a more experienced driver than I was, with over 40 years of driving experience...

liamog · 16-06-2023 11:24am

Was it one of those terrible Irish roundabout designs that have 2 lanes in and 1 lane out on every exit. I find them to be an absolute menace thanks to how badly the average driver takes roundabouts.

deravarra · 16-06-2023 12:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120721933#Comment_120721933

Yes it was!

I was on the left - he was on the right.

Thankfully for him, I was in a good mood.

Alun · 16-06-2023 12:20pm

I only see one lane on that approach, not two?

Jim_Hodge · 16-06-2023 12:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120722153#Comment_120722153

Where are the two lanes?

sonar44 · 16-06-2023 12:47pm

300bhp. Left or right, I'm always in the right lane.

deravarra · 16-06-2023 2:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120722283#Comment_120722283

not marked lanes - but everyone goes to either the left hand side or the ride hand side of the yield.

deravarra · 16-06-2023 2:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120722191#Comment_120722191

not all roads outside dublin have clearly marked lanes.

https://www.aviva.ie/blog/driving/how-to-use-roundabouts/

Aviva recognise this too :)

FishOnABike · 16-06-2023 2:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120722859#Comment_120722859

So nobody is following the rules of the road.

deravarra · 16-06-2023 2:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120722955#Comment_120722955

i followed the rules of the road.

brokenbad · 16-06-2023 2:50pm

Most common issue i see on the road these days is people not using their indicators - not just at roundabouts but at junctions too....

Alun · 16-06-2023 2:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120722963#Comment_120722963

The actual, real rules of the road, not the interpretation of them on the Aviva website which appears to be where you got your quoted text from, make no mention of forming extra lanes on the approach to roundabouts where there aren't any. What "everyone" does isn't important here.

Anyway, IMO what you did was bit of a dodgy thing to do on a small roundabout like that, and utterly pointless too. OK, on a much larger roundabout, with marked lanes on the entry, and marked lanes around the roundabout itself, yes, but not in this case.

FishOnABike · 16-06-2023 3:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120722963#Comment_120722963

From what I can make out, you overtook, on the left, in a lane that doesn't exist, a car that was ahead of you approaching the roundabout and cut that car off exiting the roundabout.

Everyone else being wrong doesn't make you right. As the road is marked, there is only one lane on that approach to the roundabout.

tayto lover · 16-06-2023 3:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120721873#Comment_120721873

40 years driving but never did a test i'd say. Loads of them around.

tayto lover · 16-06-2023 3:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120722998#Comment_120722998

I once saw a taxi driver indicating believe it or not.

deravarra · 16-06-2023 3:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120723017#Comment_120723017

What he would have done to go straight was ignore lane discipline on the roundabout.

Hows about that?

Alun · 16-06-2023 3:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120723228#Comment_120723228

I don't really understand what you're trying to say there. He was positioned to the right of the road at the entrance of the roundabout. So what? He wasn't indicating to take the 3rd exit, so your assumption should be that he's going straight on, as were you. Maybe he had a different set of unwritten rules that "everyone" using that roundabout knows about and that many people keep to the left to turn left as he said, maybe when it's really busy, I don't know.

Lane discipline only comes into the equation when there are lanes, there aren't any, you just made them up.

GreeBo · 16-06-2023 3:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120723196#Comment_120723196

If it was his middle finger then that wasn't an indicator ;)

sonar44 · 16-06-2023 4:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120723172#Comment_120723172

My interpretation too. Extremely dangerous to cut up on the inside after failing to exit on the first exit. No reason not to back off either and let the other guy exit ahead if it looked like there might be an issue. And I don't care what the rules of the road say. My rule is left hand side for the first exit or roll the dice. I'm not in the business of counting exits or working out which exit is the 'through road' at speed. We're not out there on our own. We can all show a little mercy.

deravarra · 16-06-2023 8:30pm

Spoke to a guard who told me I was in the right.

Looks like a lot of those giving advice or admonition have points on their licence

thomas 123 · 16-06-2023 9:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120722998#Comment_120722998

100% Or assuming your intent. The amount of people I have up my ass at speed at some roundabouts due to having to yield fully and sometimes stop due to clowns not indicating ... Sorry I have decided id like to not flip a coin on life today folks.

standardg60 · 16-06-2023 10:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120723479#Comment_120723479

You were doing well till the second half of your post, left lane if marked on approach is left or straight on. If you use the right lane for going straight there are certain descriptions for your behaviour which can't be used here.

Apart from that given there were no lanes on the roundabout in question it would seem that the other driver was leaving room for cars which were turning left only. This was wrong, what he should have done was move to the left to allow cars that were turning right to move alongside instead.

deravarra · 16-06-2023 10:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120723172#Comment_120723172

I did not "overtake". I was side by side with the car, yielding to traffic coming from the right of the roundabout. Once that passed, be both took off. I was on the left, and they were furthest to the right.

FishOnABike · 16-06-2023 10:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120725135#Comment_120725135

Which car exited the roundabout first, yours or the other car?

standardg60 · 16-06-2023 10:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120725164#Comment_120725164

What does it matter, the OP has already explained that the other driver told the OP that they'd moved to the right to allow cars to move up on their left to turn left only. They were wrong to do this.

Charles Babbage · 16-06-2023 10:45pm

It is obvious that people in general should do a rules of the road test when renewing a licence every 10 years.

However, those who design Irish roads should be tested too, some of the designs are well below par.

for instance, on roundabouts at dumbbell junctions on roundabouts, when you approach there are two half lanes, but there is no turning right, and so all traffic should use the left lane, unless doing a U turn. But there are no markings to contrary, what is that about?

Citrus_8 · 16-06-2023 10:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120724522#Comment_120724522

Depending on how you explained the situation, the guard may have thought that there are 2 lanes at approach while only one yield triangle on the road clearly indicates this is only one lane. It doesn't make you right creating the second lane. You simply took the car in front of you over. It was impolite and possibly irresponsible.

I'd agree with you only if there were 2 lanes on approach.

Another thing is that guard may not be a road policing guard and may not know the rules better than the others. Or didn't bother to care about the situation. Or simply thinks they know, but the knowledge is incorrect. Guard's advise when it's asked informally is irrelevant. Please don't create extra lanes. It's rude and impolite. If you do so, pay attention to the car drivers' in front of you and beside you intensions.

AndrewJRenko · 16-06-2023 11:15pm

I had a Barton’s Coach driver tell me this week that it was ok that he stopped his coach slap bang on a pedestrian crossing because “read the rules of the road, I had committed to the green light “.

The idea of not committing to a green light when there is clearly no room for him to clear the crossing never entered his tiny mind.

Professional driver, who presumably attends his mandatory CPC training every five years.

Dose.

DaveyDave · 17-06-2023 1:37am

There's a new trend of people indicating left when approaching a roundabout but going straight so you're about to pull out but have to stop because they're actually going straight. Or people indicating right, but going straight and indicate as they're coming off. **** morons. People are also using the right lane approaching two lane roundabouts to go straight when they're marked right only because they think the left lane is exit 1 only. Really don't know where these shocking roundabout habits have come from.

My missus passed her test a few months ago, new drivers are being taught a new habit of hugging the left/right side of the lane if making a turn at a junction which encourages other motorists to pull up alongside you when there's only one lane. It also blocks cyclists. Zero reason for anyone to not just be in the centre of the lane regardless, it's not like you're making space for someone to pass you...

Jim_Hodge · 17-06-2023 7:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120723190#Comment_120723190

Once! Once, in 1979, they cleared a backlog with an amnesty and 44 years on it's still spouted every time a driver over the age of 60 is mentioned.

FishOnABike · 17-06-2023 7:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120725204#Comment_120725204

OP said they didn't overtake. The other car was in front of the OP on approach to the roundabout. OP drove up beside the other car at the roundabout yield line. If the OP's car exited the roundabout ahead of the other car then OP overtook the other car.

OP's initial description and lack of a response to my assertion that if their car exited the roundabout first they did overtake the other car, would lead me to believe my view is correct.

chooseusername · 17-06-2023 8:25am

https://goo.gl/maps/qEFLC3NiUW3zSiBh6

These cars are positioned correctly to continue straight on.

Same roundabout entering from N52, two lanes clearly marked;

https://goo.gl/maps/nbdGDgSo9g2rQd946

My reading of it; you undertook on the roundabout.

newmember2 · 17-06-2023 8:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120725135#Comment_120725135

Yes...you both took off around a roundabout that has only one lane - two abreast. You're telling us a guard told you this is the correct way to drive?

The entrances to the roundabout are wide to allow traffic going immediately left not have to queue with traffic intending to use the roundabout, but the roundabout itself has only one lane.

odyssey06 · 17-06-2023 8:53am

In the US I've seen signs such as Left Lane Must Turn Left.

Here we rely on road markings which can't be seen in traffic.

We've so fond of signs for overload of secondary information but not for something as important as this.

There's far too many badly designed and laid out roundabouts, coupled with dodgy driving, it's not a good combination.

newmember2 · 17-06-2023 8:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120725893#Comment_120725893

The entrances to the roundabout are wide to allow traffic going immediately left not have to queue with traffic intending to use the roundabout, but the roundabout itself has only one lane.

Or actually that's even incorrect looking at the photos again. The other motorist wrongly (although possibly thought he was being courteous) moved to the right as he approached the roundabout to allow traffic going immediately left past him on the inside. - (like what he told you).

Why are people saying there were no lanes...what were the cars moving in so, space?

17-06-2023 9:18am

OP acted correctly in his driving, anyone who doesn’t see this needs to go back to driving school. No wonder incidents take place with the level of ignorance out there. Having said that way back in the day when I had driving lessons the instructors very rarely took me on a route that involved a roundabout, and there was no theory test, so people of my generation (60s) can be persistently ignorant of rules of the road. The driving test route didn’t cover one single roundabout to test my discipline and I was quite frankly not fit for the road having passed first go.

sonar44 · 17-06-2023 9:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120725103#Comment_120725103

I was focusing on unmarked lanes entering roundabouts as that's where the discussion has pointed.

I frequently use a particular roundabout where the first left tends to be very busy and slow so drivers looking to to use the second exit, routinely go into the right lane. This isn't just practical, it's environmentally friendly and conducive to overall traffic efficiency.

This is what I mean by not dogmatically sticking to the letter of the law and showing a little mercy, in practice.

FishOnABike · 17-06-2023 9:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120725976#Comment_120725976

If you examine the pictures (in @chooseusername's post above) of the approach to the roundabout, there is no left lane or right lane - there is only one lane. Squeezing up an imaginary lane to the left of a car already at the yield line and overtaking the other car on the left on the roundabout was not acting correctly.

The other car showed poor lane positioning but in the event of a collision the OP would have been in the wrong.

Liam O · 17-06-2023 9:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120725920#Comment_120725920

Because if an Irish driver has to think their first reaction is to slam the brakes and smash the horn. It's reasonably safe here compared to other countries which makes drivers less adaptable and more brazen. Non causal of an accident is often given as an excuse that something wasn't bad.

FishOnABike · 17-06-2023 10:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120726020#Comment_120726020

It may be practical and it may be the done thing but if you approached the roundabout in the right lane and took the second exit and collided with a car that had used the left lane you would be in the wrong. It's all all right until it isn't.

I frequently use a similar roundabout where there's often a tailback from the first exit but the local authority has taken traffic flow into consideration and clearly signposted, with advance signage and road markings all clearly stating lane priority altered ahead, left lane is for left turn only and right lane for second and subsequent exits.

If there's a problem with a junction layout a complaint should be made to the relevant authorities to have the junction layout altered, winging it and hoping for the best because it's what everyone else seems to be doing isn't going to fix anything and in the event of a collision the letter of the law is what counts.

sonar44 · 17-06-2023 10:22am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120726112#Comment_120726112

I disagree. If you collide with a car on the roundabout in this scenario, you are at fault for colliding with the other car full stop, not for being in the wrong lane entering the roundabout. Naturally you should back off if there's a car on the inside lane. My issue is with cars that belligerently try to race or block someone they suspect might be looking to exit and God forbid, they might exit in front. This, or at least the perception of this, is what appears to be the core issue of the op.

ARJn · 17-06-2023 10:23am

I am a new Driver passed my test 2 years ago and I can guarantee any old license holder will not pass the driving test in Ireland if they had to re appear

I usually drive and live around south of city and rarely go north , but I was driving toward swords through Finglas M50 and M1 the other day and OMG the roundabout dicipline is non existent to a point that I was confident at one point that eveyone entering the roundabout from left lane will and for sure will not exit on 1 or 2nd exit , while I being in inner lane for 3rd exist had to allows them to exit on 3rd to avoid collision

Cars were moving from right most lane to left most lane with indicators like they have a right of way.

scrubs33 · 17-06-2023 10:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120725576#Comment_120725576

I’d thank this post a 1000 times if I could. There’s huge inconsistency between older and newer drivers at roundabouts. Indicators mean nothing. I’m ultra cautious now for sudden changes of direction. Clearly they are being told this by driver instructors and are passing tests. If the rules have been changed then surely an information campaign for slightly older drivers like myself would be useful?

17-06-2023 10:35am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120726047#Comment_120726047

At the very least the other experienced driver positioned himself very poorly for a straight ahead exit. In this type of situation I keep towards left in a roundabout like this for either first or second exit, I keep towards right for third or fourth exits, and signal clearly. I’ll tell you something, it took more than driving lessons and passing the test to know how to handle roundabouts.

tayto lover · 17-06-2023 10:40am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120725705#Comment_120725705

More than 120,000 long term learner permit holders who obtained their first licence between 1984 and 2016 have yet to pass a driving test, new figures show. The Road Safety Authority (RSA) said the 125,860 learner permits issued between 2016 and 1984 remain active, meaning they are being renewed every year without passing a test.

FishOnABike · 17-06-2023 10:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120726144#Comment_120726144

The rules haven't changed. It's even highlighted on the first page inside the cover of the rules of the road, https://www.garda.ie/en/crime/traffic-matters/rules_of_the_road.pdf

There's just a lot of poor drivers around.

FishOnABike · 17-06-2023 11:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120726131#Comment_120726131

By inner lane I guess you mean right most lane. I avoid using inside and outside because they have opposite meanings here and in the USA so it can cause confusion. Left/right or 1/2(/3) are less ambiguous.

17-06-2023 11:07am

I got yelled at the other day by an asshole in a white van.

I was driving down Leixlip Main Street, heading in the direction of The Salmon Leap pub. Traffic was light, traffic lights were green for me at the Spar. Yellow box was clear.

Guy in a large white delivery van appeared turning left into Main Street from the Spar car park, and his van was so big he swung half way across my lane.

Location:

I had to slam on the brakes or he'd have hit me, front drivers side. He obviously didn't bother looking left before starting his turn or he would have seen me coming. Then he had the cheek to roll down his window and start yelling and gesturing at me.

I must check my dashcam for the footage, now that I think of it. Asshole.

sonar44 · 17-06-2023 11:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120726202#Comment_120726202

There’s also a whole lot more roundabouts with less than picture perfect visibility and multiple non geometric lane markings and exits.

"Experienced" drivers lacking knowledge or rules of the road

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