Marathon Improvers Thread.

Busy life alright. It is tough to do with so much going on. A lot of sacrifice required and a lot of support needed.

Definitely try pepper in the odd extra easy day where you can.

I had to get real creative last year to achieve it.

Agree with this. Running more isn’t always the answer to faster times, quality over quantity can get you where you want also if you do it right.

I didn’t say running more isn’t the answer.I said running more isn’t ALWAYS the answer. It’s horses for courses. I’m not against running more at all I just think it’s not always the answer and there are other methods to get you where you want if you’re willing to try something that’s against the grain.

How do I know? Because it worked for me and others I know. I run significantly better with a quality over quantity specific marathon training block, only when I switched to this did I go sub 3 and eventually sub 2:50. I never ran more than about 60km a week over a 12 week block to achieve those times.

In my opinion though the most important part of any marathon training plan are the weeks and months before a marathon training plan even starts. This is where you log the big miles, too many runners start training plans without a base. If you have a good base then I fully believe a quality over quantity plan can work for a lot of people, not all, but a lot.

Anyway after saying all that I encourage people to find what works best for them, if it’s marathons for example I think it’s a good idea to do different plans and not the same each time, you’ll never know what work’s best otherwise. I’d never tell someone this is how you train for a marathon and other approaches are wrong. The truth is every plan will work to some degree but a specific plan to suit you can really make all the difference, it took me several years and many marathons to realise this.

Maybe slightly off topic but - tbh it was always something that confused me about the Hanson's plan -> the emphasis on running on tired legs to simulate the last miles of the marathon. When you hear elsewhere how recovery is so important and is where the gains are made and the importance of avoiding over-training then the Hanson's methodology didn't really make much sense to me.

There was a lot about Hansons that seemed counter intuitive to me. The points you mention, the focus on pace rather than effort, especially early on in the program. Then I started seeing and reading about people's results from it and my interest was piqued. Bought the book.

Recovery is of course vitally important, and the plan has tons of active recovery either side of workouts, a rest day between the two main ones. The fatigue is cumulative and builds. You're not running on aching or sore legs, I think there's a big distinction there between that and 'tired legs'.

There's a lot of emphasis on watching out for signs of over training, and adjusting to it. The idea is to get you close to the edge.

Embarking on it on Monday for Amsterdam so I hope this post ages well. 😊

Totally agree with all of that, solid sound advice. I think though that in the context of this particular thread it's generally assumed that people are going into blocks capable of mileage.

What was interesting to me above was Finn's experience of improving by reducing volume, having a lot of experience of both approaches. I guess that points to the fact that there's no 'one size fits all' approach. My own experience has been the opposite. Adding an extra day to my week last year was a game changer. Increasing easy volume was a turbo boost to my fitness. Quality plus quantity, rather than quality over quantity.

I had a relatively successful marathon last year and my grand plan was to build a base off the back of that.

The plan was to really attack a bunch of races in early Spring and maybe/possibly work towards either another autumn marathon (didn't take up the DCM entry option) or have a proper go at cross-country and/or aim for glory at the Great South Run.

But even a cursory glance at my running log would be enough to tell you this went spectacularly t1ts up....picked up a bit of a niggle after DCM but was still tipping away ok, but then got wiped out by that flu at Xmas (steroids, antibiotics etc) and was just getting back to decent training again when Covid popped up and put me on my arse again for another few weeks.

Back at it again ok now and working towards DCM (won a place via work) but as per last year it'll be a quality over quantity approach off not a great base.....not expecting a major improvement obvs, will be happy to shave a minute or two off at best tbh.

Tldr: I think a low mileage approach can work as long as you have a consistent few months behind you (and don't get sick every 5 mins 😡)

I broke 3:30 last year for the first time mostly with consistency and one to two sessions a week, mostly at half and marathon pace. I dropped all 5k and 10k stuff.

I also made a number of mistakes, the main one was racing too much. This year only focusing on the half marathon, 6 weeks before my only marathon of the year.

I think 5 days for most is optimal, the majority of which is easy running.

Strava collected a load of data from marathon runners and showed a correlation between higher volume means faster times. I've no more details, heard it on a podcast.

I'll be hoping to take a huge chunk off my 3'18 this year and I think I can do it with the same approach.

Ah OK. Only asked because you mentioned it. Obviously irrelevant, and fair play for sticking with your mate (I had a similar experience in Dublin last year and was more than happy to use it as an excuse to leave the pacee to their own devices). 😯

If you want to improve, you need to change something. What feels comfortable could well be holding you back. Nothing like throwing the book out and starting again.

450 miles in the bank this year? You don’t need big mileage for 3:30 but 90/month is obviously not a lot.

I have a friend being coached by him and I honestly can't figure out the plan. It's done by HR zones and excluding warm up/cool down on session days there are zero miles/days of zone 1 or 2 (of 5) Make sure you get your recovery and easy days done.

This is a common training strategy in marathon running known as periodisation. Periodisation involves dividing your training into distinct phases with different goals and focuses. One aspect of periodisation involves building a solid base of fitness through shorter, faster races before transitioning into a marathon-specific training block.

The science behind this approach is as follows

Aerobic Base: Shorter races, such as 5K or 10K events, emphasize speed and help improve your aerobic capacity. They require a high level of effort over a relatively short duration. By training for and participating in these races, you enhance your cardiovascular system's ability to efficiently utilize oxygen, improve your overall running economy, and strengthen your aerobic base.

Muscular Endurance: Marathon running requires substantial muscular endurance to sustain a steady pace for a prolonged period. Shorter races can help develop this endurance by challenging your muscles to handle high-intensity efforts. The repeated stress of faster, shorter races strengthens your leg muscles, tendons, and ligaments, preparing them for the longer and more demanding marathon distance.

Mental Toughness: Running shorter races at a faster pace can also help improve your mental toughness. These races push your limits, demanding mental focus and determination to maintain speed and push through discomfort. The mental resilience developed in these races can carry over to marathon training, where you'll inevitably face challenges and need to overcome fatigue and doubts.

Injury Prevention: Building a solid base before beginning marathon training is crucial for injury prevention. By focusing on shorter races first, you allow your body to adapt and strengthen gradually. This approach reduces the risk of overuse injuries that may occur when transitioning directly to marathon-specific training, which typically involves higher mileage and longer runs.

Variety and Motivation: Incorporating shorter races into your training adds variety to your routine, keeping you motivated and engaged. It breaks the monotony of long-distance running and provides a fresh challenge. The sense of accomplishment from achieving personal bests or reaching specific goals in shorter races can boost your confidence and maintain enthusiasm for the upcoming marathon training.

As always I would highligh the fact that individual experiences may vary. Some runners may have different preferences or respond better to alternative training strategies

That's a very odd approach. Higher intensity aerobic training (at and above LT2) has the shortest half-life, so doing it in the off season seems functionally pointless - it'll all be gone by the time target races come around.

It makes more sense to do strength training and LSD in the off season, and then increase specificity (i.e. more MP) towards target races.

How is everyone getting on so far?

Mine going ok. Technically started this training block on 26/06 so 4 weeks gone. Had a 10 mile race on Saturday (The Blaney 10 mile). Was hoping for around 70-75 minutes. Surprised myself and came in at 68. Was over the moon. I've started going to an Abs and Core class on Thursdays which I feel is helping. I've never done any form of S&C before so this should benefit.

Have a few more races lined up. 5k on 04/08 and potentially a 10 mile in August but nothing booked. Then will do a half in September, will probably go for the Dublin half. Wanted to race Ratoath again and get a PB but I think the fact the Dublin one is a bit hillier will stand to me. Had to remind myself I am training for a marathon PB, not a half one.

Back doing trail/mountain running as part of this block. Do it on a Tuesday night, find it really helps the power in the legs. Then a speed session on a wednesday, a recovery on a Thursday with the S&C class then LSR on the Sunday.

Was tipping along quite well myself up until 3 weeks ago. Following Hansons for Amsterdam.

Picked up a soft tissue injury in the hip/glute. Ran a bit easy and rested a bit but missed a chunk of the program.

Physio gave me the green light to crack on albeit with lower volume for the next week or two.

Thankfully it's the type of injury that requires activity to heal.

A goal was 3:05 (PB 3:26), B is 3:15 and the C goal is a 3:20 BQ.

Just over 11 weeks left so am hopeful of the B goal still being on the table.