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Green Party or Greenwashing Party?

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12467…10

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    #92
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 24,026 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120724885#Comment_120724885

    Well this is the crux of the issue, isn't it. Ordinary working people being driven into a wholly unnecessary state of anxiety over things they cannot have a huge impact on individually.

    People will do things for two reasons. If they are cheaper or if they are easier, or better still both.

    A fella will get a bike on the BTW scheme cos it's easy and cheap but he won't insulate his F-Grade early 20th Century gaff, cos its listed and it's big and it will be hard and it will cost him a fortune, even with grants.

    So he moves from car to bike and is quite self-satisfied that he is doing his bit, all while his house has the thermal signature of a foundry, which he just ignores, because a fix is beyond his capability.

    Know what would make that better? Cheap, renewable, plentiful domestically generated energy. Let him heat the whole street if he wants then.

    See why its not being treated as the macro issue that it should be and is being foisted back on ordinary workers and farmers and SME owners, in terms of cost, effort and guilt?

    You will not achieve change that way. The whole paradigm is a mistake.



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    #93
    200mg
    Registered Users Posts: 171 ✭✭200mg


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120725381#Comment_120725381

    Aye it should be top down not the other way around. Huge corporations telling us their carbon Neutral since 2007 for example Where do they get this special electricity.



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    #94
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120723058#Comment_120723058

    Sure they’d just have used the other car for anything urgent. This was Churchtown.



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    #95
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120723009#Comment_120723009

    What do you reckon would happen to achievement of environmental goals if the Greens left Government and FF/FG did a deal with small parties and independents to keep going?



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    #96
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 24,026 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    If I may answer that, I can see a number of items being canned, another few being kicked down the road (the long road) and yet more watered down.

    And I wouldn't have a huge concern about meeting EU or UN Minima, because the straws in the wind tell us they are also facing a dose of realism.



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    #97
    ZookeeperDub
    Registered Users Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭ZookeeperDub


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120724085#Comment_120724085

    In fact I am not defending the Green Party at all, I am just responding to the points you made to clarify what is actually happening. As many have pointed out on this thread the issue is not the Green party but the actual big parties who can implement change but refuse to, even SF as the main opposite who fight against any change that could be good for the environment.

    The only suggestion you made on Solar PV would have crippled the industry overnight and set back the installation of Solar by years. It might never recover back to the current rollout that is happening in Ireland now.

    Everyone in the World should be environmentally friendly. That's my position. That can be from making sure you put everything you can into the green bin right up to retrofitting etc. That certainly doesn't mean I have to support the Green Party

    Oh yeah work from home, if you can't manage to negotiate with the company you work for to WFH for a few days then why should it be the governments job? people who are working are adults after all. WFH is not new, thousands already did it prior to covid and still do today.



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    #98
    Hellrazer
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hellrazer


    Having read most of this thread its funny to see the arguments from both sides about the greens.

    For transparency I dont support our "Irish" Greens and believe that they really havent a breeze what they are doing.

    Take for example their promotion of diesel cars back in 2008. At the time I worked in the motor trade and couldnt believe what thy were promoting. The world and its mother knew diesels were polluters but the greens gave tax breaks for diesels. Baffling stuff altogether. A complete U turn a few years layer and I think it was publically announced that it was a mistake.

    Then theres the ban on turf burning, wood burning and certain coals - yet I can drive 50 kms and buy smoky coal. I can also sell the turf I cut from my own land to a neighbour. Again baffling and to be completely honest a typical Irish half arsed way to do things.

    The push towards EVs is another thing that seems to be getting a lot of attention and is also somewhat incorrect in an Irish context. BTW Im 100% a supporter of the switch but we still generate the majority of our electricity from fossil fuels ie gas, coal and oil. Therefore we are only shifting the CO2 from the end user to the producer. If the greens wanted my support either promote nuclear or more renewables and make the shift to EVs and actually reduce our co2 emissions - there is no way in hell we are going to be at 80% renewable generation by 2030.

    Why couldnt every goverment building be covered in solar? Why could we not look at the small nuclear plants which take a lot less time to bring on stream and are very safe.

    Future policies from teh greens are to remove or not allow gas boilers be fitted and from the end of 2024 will be phased out in new builds completely and only allow heat pumps. Thats only the beginning because some time in the future if your boiler fails in your 40 year old non insulated home you will have no option to fit a heat pump.

    Again back to our electricity generation - those heat pumps cost a fortune to run and again we are shifting our CO2 from end user to producer.

    Also my c2 house will need extensive retro fitting for a heat pump - somewhere in teh region of 60-100k - thats money I dont have at the minute and you can be guaranteed that the gouging of installers ie pocketing the grants will continue as @MegamanBoo said earlier in the thread.

    Theres a lot more of their so called policies that I have zero faith in and honesty Id prefer to see a new environmental focused party that would actually promote proper environmental policies and not half arsed ones.

    So no I have zero faith in the Irish greens at the minute - if they were serious about climate change then they would promote better thought out environmental policies that people might actually buy in to. People wont buy into policies that wont benefit them in either saving money or make their lives easier as @Larbre34 pointed out. We all need to do our bit for the environment - I drive a hybrid, got solar fitted , insulated my house, separate my waste,buy less plastic wrapped stuff but I dont have to be a green supporter to be environmentally conscious.



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    #99
    prunudo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,342 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Also my c2 house will need extensive retro fitting for a heat pump - somewhere in teh region of 60-100k - thats money I dont have at the minute and you can be guaranteed that the gouging of installers ie pocketing the grants will continue as @MegamanBoo said earlier in the thread


    I'm in a similar situation, house is coming up on 18yrs old, gas boiler, ber of c2 or c1, getting crucified with interest rate hikes and other bills rising, yet if I'm supposed to embrace the future, I need to spend €60-100k to get the house up to spec and then get tied into rising electricity bills just to run the house. And thats before we talk about upgrading to an ev which could cost another €40-50k. This green crusade is going to cost people a fortune.



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    #100
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 24,026 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Not if they ignore it.

    Just deal with the bills you have and do your best with small incremental improvements at home.

    60-100k would take 30 years to pay itself back even at your home's current BER.



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    #101
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,365 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    It's not going to cost €60/100k to get a c2 house retrofitted and BER improved. Maybe put some detail on the figures to justify the claim.



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    #102
    MegamanBoo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,506 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120727403#Comment_120727403

    I suggest you go have a look in the construction forum to see the figures people are getting quoted.

    The going rate seems to be around 800euro for the pre-work assessment alone.

    In my case I've a c rated dormer bungalow so I'm looking at having to strip the entire upstairs, which is full of nooks and crannies, to retrofit sufficient roof insulation. That's before I look at doors and windows. Then doing something with the suspended floors downstairs. Then ventilation to allow the house be airtight enough for a heat pump. Then the upgrade to plumping for heat pump.

    All I can do is small incremental bits, most of which aren't covered by the single grants.

    I'm also in the bizarro situation where the grants de-incentivise me from doing work now, in case I make my self ineligible for the one stop shop, should I ever be able to afford it.



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    #103
    MegamanBoo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,506 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120725769#Comment_120725769

    I love to hear your libertarian, laissez-faire version of Churchill's speech...

    "We'll fight them on the beaches, if you want to, I mean, I'd like you to want to, provided it doesn't affect private industry, and you'll have to negotiate the time off yourself with your employer of course...."



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    #104
    MegamanBoo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,506 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120725205#Comment_120725205

    I only see one question from you, which is would the greens do better in opposition.

    My answer is the Greens need to disband or rebuild to represent today's environmentalist viewpoint.

    Compromise, compromise, compromise, in return for token gestures no longer cuts it.

    In contrast to Labre34 I don't think there'd be any rollback on current environmental policy. FFG value 'Brand Ireland' above all else and need to keep some efforts going. They won't want to be the biggest polluter in Europe, as well as having the most questionable tax regime. Plus they know some small degree of effort plays better at election time.

    Now your turn, please answer my questions.



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    #105
    ZookeeperDub
    Registered Users Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭ZookeeperDub


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120725900#Comment_120725900

    I have little interest in nuclear but I agree on government buildings. Schools/libraries etc should all be used, as much roof space as possible. Planning changed than any DC/office block etc has to have a roof full of solar panels. That is an easy fix on planning and a longer term on retrofitting panels

    Electric cars at this stage is getting close to a mess, you can't get one if you wanted, the price is terrible high. Plus now to charge on public network is close to the cost of diesel.

    In regards to a heat pump, in reality a good running oil boiler will be better for the environment than trying to retrofit and install a heat pump which will probably never suit the property. Good insulation is a starting point and the SEAI grants can be implemented one at a time and it doesn't have to be big bang approach. This is the approach the majority of the population are taking to be honest and I doubt many will go for the retrofit, I have one mate doing it and they have to move out for about 6 months(well he hopes 6). Its a huge undertaking.

    I don't have faith in the Greens either, but I don't have faith in any of the political parties, as I said my biggest gripe is with the big parties who could affect change but in fact they are the ones "greenwashing"

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120727452#Comment_120727452

    Small increments are covered by SEAI. Always have been and retrofit/big bang approach is the newer method.



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    #106
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120727502#Comment_120727502

    Look again



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    #107
    MegamanBoo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,506 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120727506#Comment_120727506

    I suspect you know this already as you seem to know a bit about the schemes and it's kinda day one stuff...

    But the incremental grants cover far less items e.g. no doors/windows/rafters/floors. For those they do cover, some are then to less value than complete retrofit.

    Complete retrofit then comes with certain criteria, less than b3 before and 100kw/m overall improvement.

    So it's quite possible, and I'd imagine quite a few are, to be in my situation and be disincentivised away from the incremental grants.



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    #108
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    we’re in dire straits and nothing green parties and their feel good middle class buddies are doing will stop it



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    #109
    MegamanBoo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,506 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120727525#Comment_120727525

    Ah ok I see it now.

    It seems you want me to talk about getting to net zero in 5-10 years, but where did I ever mention that???

    I want to know why we're already so far off the plans we have and why the 'Greens' are supporting that.

    I consider your non-question answered, so please answer mine now.



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    #110
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120727767#Comment_120727767

    Are you going to answer the question about what would happen to Government environmental achievements if the Greens left government?



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    #111
    MegamanBoo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,506 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120727793#Comment_120727793

    Answered about 5 or 6 posts back.



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    #112
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120727841#Comment_120727841

    Nope. You answered a different question earlier.

    Give my question a shot please.



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    #113
    MegamanBoo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,506 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120727876#Comment_120727876

    Here's my answer copied from above. The original question was phrased differently but the part you've picked out is covered here too....

    My answer is the Greens need to disband or rebuild to represent today's environmentalist viewpoint.

    Compromise, compromise, compromise, in return for token gestures no longer cuts it.

    In contrast to Labre34 I don't think there'd be any rollback on current environmental policy. FFG value 'Brand Ireland' above all else and need to keep some efforts going. They won't want to be the biggest polluter in Europe, as well as having the most questionable tax regime. Plus they know some small degree of effort plays better at election time.



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    #114
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120727906#Comment_120727906

    Apologies, I nodded off before I got to your final paragraph.

    FF/FG literally wouldn’t know their arses from their elbows on environmental matters without the Greens to tell them what to do.



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    #115
    MegamanBoo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,506 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120727926#Comment_120727926

    I disagree, I'm sure they'd find a management consultant or two to come up with something equally inept as we have now.

    Have you seen the retrofit scheme?

    And overall 40% off the 2030 target already.



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    #116
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120727767#Comment_120727767

    Oh dear, well I tried



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    #117
    MegamanBoo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,506 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120728104#Comment_120728104

    You really haven't.

    If I'm right in assuming you're a 'Green' supporter, you haven't made a single attempt to defend their position.

    Not defensible is it?



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    #118
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120728223#Comment_120728223

    Lol



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    #119
    ZookeeperDub
    Registered Users Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭ZookeeperDub


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120727725#Comment_120727725

    Retrofit is designed to bring a house at a very low rating up to a higher rating in one jump. A full retrofit as the name suggests. If the house is already at a higher rating then the investment will not make sense. Hence why they have criteria around it.

    I have never seen anyone who would want to go to the expense of a full retrofit on a house when it's not required.



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    #120
    rob316
    Registered Users Posts: 18,052 ✭✭✭✭rob316


    The greens govern, that has always been their agenda, the green election policies are just for votes. Ryan has absolutely no vision, taxation and penalties is all they champion while there is no viable alternative in place.

    They will be wiped out in the next election, (as is the usual for any small party that hitches itself to ff/fg) but we really do need a loud proper environmental voice in government.



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    #121
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120728014#Comment_120728014

    Management consultants don’t really do policy. And they certainly don’t do environmental policy. If you want to see greenwashing, management consultants would be a great place to start.

    Do you reckon that a Government with no Greens would have led the very substantial improvements in public transport that we’ve seen?



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