Interesting articles

Larbre34 · 16-06-2023 2:18pm

Possibly. But then, why isn't the Rwanda relocation plan proving unpopular in the polls? Yes the NGO rights groups and left wing media hate it and arguably it is far more extreme and right wing than any suggestion of national military service, but its not causing convulsions among voters.

I couldn't see a Labour government ever doing national service, but if you look at Tory policy in the round, I wouldn't put it beyond possibility.

Migration and youth employment and gang crime and street assaults are all big issues in many parts of Britain, many a law and order Tory would argue that national service is an excellent youth diversion programme, not to mention a giver of life skills, leadership and self worth...

sparky42 · 16-06-2023 2:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120722550#Comment_120722550

The Rwanda “plan” isn’t causing any issues as it doesn’t affect Joe blogs in the street even wider/when it happens. It’s just a continuation of their “Hostile environment” policy.

National Service, and particularly one that likely isn’t going to be for everyone will affect Joe blogs and their kids, it will matter at the ballot box. I don’t get why there seems to be this view that nations that traditional have been against national service will suddenly revert to what are usually full wartime actions.

mupper2 · 16-06-2023 2:56pm

Not sure if APOD over on IMO posts here, so here's his post from earlier today..

"Request for Info (RFI) published on the new etenders site for provision of the new Defence Forces Combat Clothing System (DFCCS) in Irish Transitional Multicam Pattern (ITMP).

ITMP is a bespoke pattern developed in conjunction with Crye"

Larbre34 · 16-06-2023 3:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120722609#Comment_120722609

Because we (NATO, EU, the 'global west') are at a much higher baseline defence condition than we were in 2021, or even 2013. Military expansion is the order of the day among the allies.

Any gap in capacity causing a shortfall in capability needs a contingency ready to solve it. No matter how big a policy step that may be.

Only 20% of NATO members have it right now, but it is certainly a live issue of debate among them all.

https://www.dw.com/en/europe-is-compulsory-military-service-coming-back/a-65880469

sparky42 · 16-06-2023 3:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120722926#Comment_120722926

Keep flogging the idea, I’m not buying it, the nations that have used it might restore it (Germany won’t I’d bet, not with their issues), but the US, Canada, U.K… not a hope.

Larbre34 · 16-06-2023 5:02pm

I'm not flogging it, I'm merely citing that it has become a live issue for militaries being forced to ramp up their capabilities and their commitment.

I'm not sure how many senior British officers I've heard quoted at this stage, warning the government there, over and again, that a massive expansion is needed. Drastic times, drastic measures.

odyssey06 · 16-06-2023 5:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120723316#Comment_120723316

I'd imagine also that those same officers would react in horror at any suggestion they were going to be given recruits \ short timers who don't want to be there.

It wasn't brought in in the 1980s after the Falkands \ USSR Cold War threat when the likes of Norman Tebbit was in Cabinet, I can't see it happening with this Conservative Party.

sparky42 · 16-06-2023 5:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120723316#Comment_120723316

Senior military officers don’t have to get elected, politicians do.What you/they are suggesting for the “Anglo sphere” hasn’t been done in decades if not longer and would need a complete restructuring of the militaries before it even started. The is no capacity within those nations to train the volume of people a national service produces, let alone the impact on unit cohesion and morale.

Or put it another way, the RAF can’t sort out its pilot pipeline and the RN can’t handled progressing it’s newly inducted sailors in a timely manner as is…Maybe national service isn’t going to do Jack to change that.

Dohvolle · 16-06-2023 6:38pm

The RN hasn't updated itself to reflect modern society. It is in the process, but its a long way off. The majority of its combat fleet was built in the last century, when the idea of sticking 20 or 30 matelots into a space no bigger than an average living room was considered adequate sleeping accommodation. Then sending them off for 6 months on operations with no access to modern communication. The OPVs were the first to buck this trend, followed by the Carriers, with smaller cabins, and access to shipboard wifi for skype etc.

But you still have the bulk of the fleet on the old frigates from the 90s, with living spaces stuck into whatever space was left after the 1980s era electronic systems to power the weapons and sensor fit were installed.

Modern military personnel want to be treated fairly, and if expected to work round the clock, at least want some level of peace for their off duty moments. The average british recruit is no different.

Go through an education system and society tell them they can be anything they want, have the fast car, nice home etc, join the senior service and your nice car spends most of the year under a cover declared OTR to DVLA outside their mums house, because the RN Polis at their RN base only allows residents park inside the gates, and they aint residents if they are on a anti drug patrol in the Caribbean or east of suez innit! Share a living space with 20 others from all backgrounds, which is a special level of fun when the ships aircon fails in 40 degree heat. Eat with them, work with them, drink with them, shag them (if you are very careful) break up with them, and be stuck looking at their face every day until the deployment ends. Your immediate boss retrained as a tiffy in his/her mid 30s having been a plumber in civvy street and has no time for your problems, as he/she tries to keep the ship operating with parts supplied by the lowest cost supplier. Your Branch officer is 21, went to the best School in the UK and their Grandfather was Nav on HMS Fearless in 82 and owns a yacht in Gibraltar, but they have no idea what your first name is or where you live. They know your address, they just have no idea where that part of the UK is...and their promotion prospects rely on their branch, i.e you, being the most efficient at everything so you spend all your spare duty time doing drills and training for some competition back on land that involves running around in boots and overalls and carrying the MOB dummy. None of this fills your task book, which should prepare you for promotion to leading rate, so you are stuck at that rate for yet another deployment. They have no idea whats going on otherwise. They arrived on the ship by helicopter after the previous branch officer left to join another ship. You carried your own luggage up the gangway back at base.

Meanwhile your mates from school earn double what you do and spent the summer Backpacking around Australia.. You are scheduled leave at the end of the deployment, which was to be in August, but because the ship must go to drydock for more repairs, that's now pushed out to October..

Dohvolle · 16-06-2023 11:43pm

'Fair to assume' Russia is mapping cables and pipelines off Irish coast, NATO General says (thejournal.ie)

Larbre34 · 17-06-2023 12:37am

A soberly teutonic assessment from Der General-Leutnant.

As always the comments make me want to go boil my own head.

Dohvolle · 17-06-2023 1:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120725404#Comment_120725404

the tankie narrative is clear though. The message coming from their handlers in Orwell road must be shared as often as possible.

And most of them couldn't point out Ukraine on a map if you asked them to.

sparky42 · 17-06-2023 2:26pm

Yeah the comment sections on anything defence related get swarmed by gobshites.

sparky42 · 17-06-2023 2:53pm

Interesting article from Tony Connolly:

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2023/0617/1389644-neutrality/

While the IT has a few articles

https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2023/06/17/voters-want-to-keep-ireland-neutral-but-increase-investment-in-defence-poll-shows/

https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2023/06/17/neutrality-poll-more-people-support-a-change-in-neutrality-but-few-agree-on-what-it-should-be/

sparky42 · 17-06-2023 9:53pm

Looks like Mickey D is weighing in on defence, front page on the Sunday Business Post it seems:

https://twitter.com/ConorGallaghe_r/status/1670119105230254083

Larbre34 · 17-06-2023 10:04pm

Well now. That's an overstep. A big one.

That could snowball into quite an unpleasant outcome for him. I'm quite shocked he's gone there.

sparky42 · 17-06-2023 10:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120728414#Comment_120728414

Given his old school Left views on defence and FP are you really? I mean remember his "wife's" letter on the war...It does seem like a giant leap into an active political discussion so yeah, its going to be interesting to see how this plays out.

thomas 123 · 17-06-2023 10:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120728351#Comment_120728351

Its Gov + Co policy to ram through nato membership for us by the looks of things.

They could not predict the outcome of the citizens assembly so instead we are getting a summit with only one Pro Neutral speaker - according to TD Paul Murphy.

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/politics/micheal-martin-paul-murphy-neautrality-30241564

I think its mad we are not talking about this more.

Excerpt ---

Mr Murphy said: “The list of invited speakers gives the game away to an extreme degree. “You have one anti-war speaker in the form of Roger Cole and multiple people who are on record as being in favour of joining NATO, have links to NATO themselves and so on. Does this not just give the entire game away?”

The Tánaiste hit back at Mr Murphy as he accused him of suggesting that people he did not agree with should not speak at the event.

He accused him of “personalising” the debate as he suggested he had also made comments about the forum’s chairperson.

He replied: “It is a sickening form of politics that you engage in, Deputy Murphy. I find it abhorrent.

“But a more sinister element behind it is to snuff out debate. You talk about freedom of speech and so on in Tunisia. You're nowhere near that, I'm not suggesting that.

“But what you are trying to suggest is certain people can't speak because they have a view. “That is what you're saying. They should not be allowed to speak. If there is up to 50 or 60 speakers, if one or two have views that are contrary to Deputy Murphy or Deputy [Richard] Boyd Barrett, they should not speak.

“That is intolerance. You guys are no great advocates of freedom of speech at all.

“I shudder to think of the day when you would never be an authority. Because by God would you put the jackboot on people who might have views different to yours.”

---

The language from MM is mad, instead of belaying the fears raised by PM he goes straight on the attack which would indicate to me that PM hit the nail on the head. Now I am no fan of PM but it only appears to be himself and a few others questioning the gov on this.

sparky42 · 17-06-2023 10:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120728453#Comment_120728453

Bullshit!

mupper2 · 17-06-2023 10:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120728453#Comment_120728453

We couldn't join NATO even if we wanted to.

thomas 123 · 17-06-2023 10:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120728490#Comment_120728490

Apologies, Ive used "Join Nato/Ram through Membership" in the place of "question or alter our neutrality to be Pro Nato".

sparky42 · 17-06-2023 10:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120728499#Comment_120728499

We have been in the PfP for decades. And our "neutrality" has never been anything more than "sit on our asses and get the UK to protect us", nothing at all about any "enlightened position" of non violence.

sparky42 · 17-06-2023 10:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120728490#Comment_120728490

Not even close, hell there was an article in RUSI suggesting that at least one member has already declared they would refuse us, and the French told us to go do one apparently when we floated them taking over the Air Policing from the UK.

thomas 123 · 17-06-2023 10:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120728506#Comment_120728506

We have not been dragged into any conflicts that we did not choose to be present at - ie Peacekeeping.

We do not require protecting and to date the UK has not had to protect us from any actual nation state threat. (That I am aware of)

We should not entertain the idea that any of our kids should ever go to war for any reason other than protecting this country from invaders.

I'm all for ramping up our defense forces with modern equipment, more numbers, decent pay and facilities etc but under no circumstance should we put ourselves in a position where Irish People are fighting wars in the interest of any group of countries.

^^ In my opinion ^^

sparky42 · 17-06-2023 10:45pm

The full article:

Ireland is “playing with fire” during a dangerous period of “drift” in its foreign policy and must avoid “burying ourselves in other people’s agendas”, President Michael D Higgins has said.

In an exclusive interview with the Business Post, President Higgins has given a strongly worded warning about deviating from Ireland’s traditional policy of “positive neutrality”.

He said that the country finds itself in a particularly acute moment, noting that “the most dangerous moment in the articulation and formulation of foreign policy and its practice, since the origin of diplomacy, has been when you’re drifting and not knowing what you’re doing”. He added, “I would describe our present position as one of drift.”

Ireland’s traditional policy of neutrality is currently under review, with a four-day debate over the country’s foreign policy set to begin at the Government’s Consultative Forum on International Security Policy.

The panel is set to discuss a number of issues about Ireland’s international relations, including the country’s long-standing tradition of military neutrality and the possibility of membership of Nato.

President Higgins said that Ireland should avoid the “strutting and chest thumping” of those who would espouse a “hold-me-back version of Irish policy”, and who would want Ireland to “march at the front of the band” into military alliances such as Nato.

“We’re better than that,” he said, adding that Irish foreign policy should be based on the country’s tradition of international cooperation.

The country must avoid abandoning Ireland’s right to belong to any group that it chooses in relation to non-militaristic international policy, he said.

In relation to the Consultative Forum on International Security Policy, he said that the composition of the various panels was mostly made up of “the admirals, the generals, the air force, the rest of it”, as well as “the formerly neutral countries who are now joining Nato”. He asked why there was no representation from still-neutral countries such as Austria and Malta.

He was critical, too, of the European Union for its increasing military posturing, citing French president Emmanuel Macron’s recent comments that “the future of Europe is as the most reliable pillar in Nato”.

He said, “Any time that Ireland puts itself behind the shadows of previous empires within the European Union it loses an opportunity of expanding and enhancing and using its influence for the world.”

The president was speaking in the context of a wider analysis of the need for reform of the United Nations, which he has on several occasions described as the foundation of Ireland’s foreign policy.

President Higgins was ‘despondent’ in relation to the decline of the United Nations, which he said was the result of “an incredible failure of diplomacy and failure of commitment to the United Nations” and “should never have come to this point”, he said.

The future of the UN, he said, lay in the countries of Africa, South America and Asia rather than Europe, because “some of its principal partners are too heavily involved in undermining it”.

“I think the change that will represent the population of the world, the best prospect in relation to globalisation, the best prospect in relation to climate change, in relation to migration, in relation to all of these issues, is going to come from that side.”

Ireland, through its foreign policy, ought to engage in “a more inclusive, deeper, more wide ranging, more self-confident [foreign policy], not just in consultation with the fading imperial powers, but with the emerging populations of the world”, he said.

Ireland’s freedom to join any group that could “break the impasse of the decline of the United Nations has to be incredibly important”, he said.

President Higgins also expressed reservations about further investment in the Irish Defence Forces while it had yet to resolve the cultural issues revealed by an independent review group of substantial institutional problems with sexual misconduct, bullying, discrimination and career obstruction.

“We haven’t put in place any guarantees yet to say that when we invite young women and men to join to serve Ireland we will offer you a career in which you will be treated with dignity, you will be upskilled, when you decide to leave you will be a person with confidence,” he said.

“I have to say I am absolutely heartbroken at the fact that people have had to wait for justice.”

Notmything · 17-06-2023 11:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120728499#Comment_120728499

We've always been pro NATO, just like we were pro allies in ww2.

Psychlops · 17-06-2023 11:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120728490#Comment_120728490

Course we could, Iceland are in it & have ZERO Mil capability.

Psychlops · 17-06-2023 11:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120728351#Comment_120728351

Socialist does not like NATO, who would have guessed that..

sparky42 · 17-06-2023 11:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120728695#Comment_120728695

Or the rest of the "West", or the Defence Forces it seems? But has he overstepped his office in jumping into the topic?

Larbre34 · 18-06-2023 12:09am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120728697#Comment_120728697

100%.

The creation and evolution of foreign and defence policy is the preserve of the elected Government of the day. Unambiguously.

Policy is created at Ministerial level, at Government level or at Oireachtas level, by those commanding a majority.

You asked earlier was I really surprised at his comments given his past affiliations and allegiances and the position of his wife on certain matters.

Yes, I am.

1) He is not his wife. Nobody elected her to anything, she is as entitled to her view as any of us. If somebody wants to publish that view, it makes no difference to anything.

2) Higgins is a former cabinet minister in Governments who dealt with the limitations of the office of President. As well as that he has been in office for almost 12 years, he knows the feckin score from every side, maybe better than any other Irish person alive. He gets no excuses.

3) He can't have given this interview without knowing the gravity of it. It's not just comment reflecting social change or the voice of the people, it is conflict with evolving Government policy, its a head on collision with the executive and the legislature.

It's so bad actually, that I wonder is it some sort of suicide play, to leave the Áras 28 months early and retire with no further duties, yet having made a huge and controversial name for himself which will affect constitutional law discussion for years.

I keep re-reading the article. I genuinely think he is toast.

Interesting articles

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