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  • Registered Users Posts: 240 ✭✭mupper2


    It's not 1949....it's not even 1999. we'd be a burden to them and would be unwanted right now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,470 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    "That I'm aware of"

    That line is carrying massive weight in your post. I would summarise it as the ostrich effect. If you cannot see the threat, there must not be one?

    Meanwhile the russian Navy plan missile exercises in our EEZ, their bombers spend hours unmonitored flying through our airspace, the only reason we know this is because the RAF escorted them in, and escorted them back out again. Their "Research ships" spend many hours sheltering from weather in the most exposed bay on the west coast, which by coincidence is close to communication cables connecting Europe to North America

    The Russian Embassy is actively being used as a hub for their intelligence operations in the UK and europe. Do you really think Ireland is important enough to russia that its embassy here requires a staff of 30 "advisors"?

    Do we need to be actually invaded before you consider there is a real and active threat?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,792 ✭✭✭thomas 123


    Russia is no threat to us and as recently as the early 2010s their warships visited Cobh.

    Yes they are an agressor. No they are not a direct threat to Ireland worth becoming non neutral for.

    The UK has never had to intercept a missile or fire on an threat on behalf of Ireland and I cannot see them needing to in any version of the near future.



  • Registered Users Posts: 240 ✭✭mupper2


    It was a russian cyber criminal collective that did the HSE hack...and if you think those groups have no connections to offical russia I have a bridge in Crimea to sell.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭sparky42




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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,792 ✭✭✭thomas 123


    l won’t harp on, I’ve made my point and this thread is super with the interesting links.

    The HSE using outdated software painted a target on their own back given the importance of that data - of course nobody should be hacking them and committing crimes but lacking a robust and up to date security system is not a reason to step away from neutrality.

    Thanks for the chat lads!



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,470 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    I was there when their ships visited. Not sure which one, either Vise Admiral Kulakov or Soobrazitelny had time to stage a visit with the top Northern fleet admirals, brought to Cobh in a fleet of BMW 7 series saloons, all with diplomatic plates. The ships were never open to the public, and it was believed Ireland provided an ideal opportunity for the top brass in Russian intelligence based in Dublin to meet with military commanders away from prying eyes.

    If you believe they pose no threat to us I have a nice bridge to sell you.

    https://flic.kr/p/d3Pr59



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,470 ✭✭✭Dohvolle




  • Registered Users Posts: 240 ✭✭mupper2


    Great pics.

    I'm always amused that people don't think it was odd the russians wanted to build a completely over scaled underground facility under their embassy as if everyone had one.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,792 ✭✭✭thomas 123


    Nice Photos. Thanks for sharing. I don't see an issue with their people meeting, sure Shannon is a transit hub for the US military. As for the ships being open to the public - Pretty standard practice for most navies. Even if you would be let on it would be a walk around the deck and maybe the bridge. Although I suspect the Russians would be wanting to not show the state/mess of it unlike the US Navy who would not want you to see the tech!


    Next time you head out leave your house doors and windows open then. The crime was committed and as I said the criminals were wrong. The HSE were beyond foolish with their security though. They were an easy target(for whoever targeted them) is the point I was trying to make. Has a link with the Russian government ever actually been established?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Or the fact that we have more personnel assigned to Dublin than nations multiple times our size, or ones they do a lot more trade with… I loved their excuse that it was all just going to be short term accommodation for staff transmitting through Dublin.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭sparky42


    I wonder if anyone would put it to the President or any of the Left screaming about "NATO and Militarism", if they are against us working (being completely dependent on) with NATO nations, and against increasing the capabilities of the DF (cause that's wrong somehow), what answer will they give to Irish citizens stuck where ever the next time a nation implodes?

    "Sorry love, you can't get on a NATO airplane, they are too imperialist don't you know. I'm sure you will be fine with the Taliban..."



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,470 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    BULLSHIT

    I'm on this planet long enough to know how naval visits work, particularly with russians. This was an operational visit, not a courtesy call, everyone with eyes could see it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,792 ✭✭✭thomas 123


    With the Irish naval service people are generally given a walk around the deck, up one bridge wing, through the bridge and down the other wing and off the gangway again - unless things have changed in the last 10 years.

    Im sorry they didn’t let you on but the nature of their visit is irrelevant to our nutrality really.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭sparky42


    An article out at 6pm on a Sunday… I wonder what might have already been said to the President?

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/commentanalysis/arid-41164870.html



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,470 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    On the contrary, it demonstrates its pointlessness. Here we have a foreign military power using our ports as a rendezvous for its military and spies. Is this something neutrals do?

    Courtesy visits are just that. Courtesy. Not someplace to hold meetings with your foreign spies.

    Love your tone though. Means I won't be reading anything more you post here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,470 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Indeed. Tainiste trying to get the public back on message after the presidents hatchet job. He is entitled to his opinions as an individual, but not if they are contrary to the government of the day.

    I wonder will there be a moment of "mature reflection" for the Phoenix Park prisoner?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,792 ✭✭✭thomas 123


    I’ve only been polite to you, all you have done is capitalize buzz words in an effort to discredit me. You keep harping on about one ships visit as if they launched ballistic missiles at cork city. They did, or at least did not get caught, doing anything illegal.

    Have a lovely evening mate - no offense intended tone wise.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭sparky42


    I doubt it, I mean how many people that age actually change positions on much? I mean apart from the comments about the forum (and isn’t it interesting that he had a similar attack on the chairwoman that PBP and co came up with when she was announced), and to me either the lack of awareness in the panel members or the dishonest framing of them? And then on top of things taking a cheap shot on the investment in the DF. Given how the Gardaí for example have had issues in the past would he argue the same against investment in them? And I see Senator Clonal also jumped to the attack on the panelists until he deleted the tweet…



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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,173 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    MMs article there is just a slightly reworked version of a statement he released through the DoFA just after lunch.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Perhaps, I didn’t see that, but still to push it out in the examiner tonight and perhaps in the paper itself tomorrow is a bit of a quick reaction. Looks like the Government has decided not to try picking a fight publicly with the President but who knows what was said privately. However I think we can all bet that this may not be the last interjection on the subject from the President.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2023/0618/1389872-ireland-neutrality-president/



  • Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭RavenP


    The president is sort of right, although he may be exceeding his role, or at the very least pushing it to the maximum of its envelope. The Irish people want Ireland to stay militarily non-aligned. Doubtless the politicians, used to rubbing shoulders with the leaders of the west, would desire otherwise, but as the IT poll showed yesterday, the Irish people value neutrality. The IT also showed however, that the Irish people want an armed neutrality, where we only make arrangements with other powers based on our interests, from a position of strength. Where the president is wrong is in suggesting that cultural change must come before enhanced capacity in the DF. That would be a terrible mistake. Both must hapen in parallell, but there is no time to waste securing ourselves in a troubled world. I also, like the president, am a little suspicious that the person who is to chair of the Consultative Forum, is a little to "in" with the Americans and the British, a Dame ffs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,470 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Who would you pick instead with similar experience?

    Names...

    People in the UK get knighthoods for doing their job well. Should she have refused it just to appease the republicans (small r). Its their tradition. They were talking about similar for here last week.

    The Irish people value neutrality, but the poll also showed they haven't a notion what it entails.

    "we want to be neutral but are fine with the British military protecting our airspace and whoever else protecting our waters!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Moreover it was a cheap shot against someone he knows can’t openly defend themselves, as Cathal Berry said this morning I would hope he would have the decency to apologise but I doubt it. Wonder does he share the same view of anyone else that has received any awards from the U.K.? Maybe next time he’s meeting Charles he can complain to him about it?

    And yes the average Irish voter doesn’t have a clue about what “neutrality” means or how other nations enforce it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭RavenP


    I think that Irish people have an instinctive understanding of neutrality, and it means not being in NATO, and letting Irish interests determine foreign and security policy. Most people in any country will have no deeper an understanding than that. Regarding Prof Richardson, she is very much an establishment character of the west. I believe that she will want Ireland as close to NATO and the western alliance as is politically possible. I think her outspoken intervention in the Scottish independence debate during the referendum campaign shows that first and foremost she is a company woman doing her job for the establishment, despite whatever left liberal causes she claims to espouse. I do not have confidence that her chairmanship of this board will help get what really need, a secure strong Ireland that operates and positions itself for, by and on behalf of the Irish people. We need to be just as close to the west as we need to be and no closer, because otherwise we are working for them and not us.

    I spent the first half of my life a British citizen, I am an oul prod fre the north, but in the second half of my life embraced my Irishness (part marring across and living and working in RoI) but I know the U.K. honours system. Firstly it is very political, her Scottish intervention is why she got it, no doubt about it IMHO and also loads of people turn down honours, including many people who might surprise you, lots of people on the centre left to left and republicans, big and small R. This is not just SF stuff, a former SDLP leader, Brid Rodgers was expelled from the party for accepting a “gong”. It is not really the done thing unless you are a real west Brit. We need a clear, patriotic, yes small r republican, to chair that committee.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭sparky42


    The President has apologised for his comment on Professor Richardson:

    https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2023/0619/1389917-neutrality-ireland/



  • Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭RavenP


    politically he had to probably, but his original assessment has merit.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Not really, full of cheap shots and lazy thinking, but pretty much standard for those of that political alignment.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,470 ✭✭✭Dohvolle




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