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French rugby Updates : Le café du Rugby.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,617 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    Im not taking exception to what your saying, just find the conclusion at odds with my opinion which is fine but if in your eyes ROG is a classless thug what does that make Sexton after his behavior at the champions cup final and his other incidents?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,998 ✭✭✭leakyboots


    "Classless thug" 😅



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,558 ✭✭✭Ardillaun



    Ntamack certainly showed pace but he was also facing a wall of players. If they’d been standing still it would have been hard to run around them. How he found the space to do that I don’t know. The agility and confidence displayed was of a high order.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    I wouldn't be too critical of the Seuteni decision to shoot. There was a massive overlap for Toulouse and they were likely to make a big line break down the left. When Ntamack got the ball, he had 5 team mates outside him with only Seuteni and Leyds in the defensive line facing him. Dulin was nowhere to be seen on the linebreak as he was sweeping across to outside Leyds to cover the wider position having also spotted the mismatch.

    But if you shoot, you need to do something to at least slow the man down. Ntamack got past him without any issue which allowed him be in full stride when Leyds attempted his tackle.

    This is the sort of scenario that La Rochelle are vulnerable to. Frustrating to see as a Leinster fan as they clearly set up to defend aggressively and narrowly. They don't have the mobility to keep the top teams at bay out wide so are dependent on keeping possession. Even Exeter repeatedly opened them up there. When you have a team of absolute monsters, they're not going to have the legs/mobility to get across on quick ball.

    Toulouse had the better of the breakdown overall which meant that La Rochelle didn't hold onto the ball for long periods as they'd have hoped. Crucially, when Toulouse got their hands on the ball, some of their exits were top class. They picked off 9 points in the second half from breakdown penalties once they were able to push La Rochelle back into their own half. I'm still dubious as to the fitness of Botia coming back on. He was relatively anonymous around the field after that knee to the head and had little presence at the breakdown.

    Somewhat disingenuous of ROG to undermine the Toulouse performance by saying they were average on the night and profited from LAR mistakes. At least 13 points for La Rochelle came from unforced knock ons off the top of my head. Their opening try was due to Cros spilling a simple pass on his own 5m line which gave LAR a scrum and they were over within 2 phases. Then two second half penalties were down to unchallenged fielders dropping catches (one saw a team mate play from an offside position immediately and the other led to a penalty from the resulting scrum).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,575 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    It was frustrating from a Leinster view, to see how well Toulouse did disrupting La Rochelle's lineout. Makes it all the more baffling that we didn't try at all to attack them there.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Agree with this - there was also 3 points for LAR in the first half from a penalty, on a kick through that Ntamack dealt with badly, but was also a very obvious high tackle on him from Boudehent.

    In general - I can't get over how unambitious La Rochelle were with ball in hand. I get they are possibly the most powerful team in world rugby (including international sides), but jesus surely sometimes you can try another option? They just relentlessly plow into contact time and time again.

    Antoine Hastoy had a poor day - weak off the tee, loose kicking from hand, didn't get anything going in the backs. Toulouse bench made a difference - Flament in particular is just an outstanding player.

    All in - still felt there were plenty of French vulnerabilities on show for Ireland to look at - Dupont had a pretty poor game again and was well contained. Ramos struggled terribly under high balls. The Toulouse scrum was obliterated.

    Can't understand why O'Gara let himself down with the "average" comments.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,253 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    It's an extraordinary interview from ROG. Like, one or two comments in the heat of the moment would be understandable but he goes on at great length about it.

    Fair enough he's disappointed but saying they have great players in Ntamack and Dupont and the rest are average is completely out of order.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    I haven't heard this recent interview but I remember him saying back when he was a coach at Racing and they lost a European QF to Saracens (I think it was where Marcelo Bosch got a late penalty to win it) that Saracens were a "very average side".



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,640 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    But surely he should have come up a bit wider so if Ntamack did step him it would have been on his inside? Is he going for the intercept and misjudges the flight of the ball?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,640 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I understand you'd have reasons to dislike him lately, stephen, but the reality is ROG is regarded as an honest interviewee and pundit, who doesn't just reguritate platitudes and cliches.

    That you disagree with him doesn't change that. (Nor does pointing that out constitute trolling).



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Yeah, I think he got his timing slightly off. Ntamack was able to step across to let the ball beat Seuteni and Dupont threw a peach of a pass to beat him. The hard work was done already once Ntamack got the ball. After that it was just a matter of putting the foot down from 60m.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    He’s also known for having angry rants at referees, his own fans and now opposition teams, who have the audacity to beat him. He seems incredibly thin skinned. He also comes across as being very self serving in his “honesty” A La the comments about Goodman in the lead up to the final. Which people choose to ignore, in the narrative, that he’s a straight talker.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,330 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Well if he genuinely thinks that Toulouse are an incredibly average team then it explains why he keeps losing to them.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    Nice hint of a dummy/making it look as if he might pass outside to buy a crucial few extra inches of space so he can break past Leyds too. I was wondering if Larmour or Ringrose would keep the defender in two minds like that or would they purely commit to running earlier and make Leyds's job a little bit easier.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    I think he speaks his mind and that's fair enough. And it's fair enough to disagree if those comments appear to be somewhat outlandish and silly which they are in this case. I doubt that ROG believes what he said himself and he was just sick at the result but there's no benefit to discrediting the opposition. If anything, it just gives Toulouse a reason to go after La Rochelle again next season and try to increase that winning ratio.

    The direct quotes are below. Someone with better French than me can give an exact translation but from my limited knowledge, he's saying that Toulouse have great players in Dupont and Ntamack but nothing special beyond that and they have a lot of average players....which is ridiculous when you look at the defensive job their pack did. La Rochelle got very little from all of their mauls bar one in the first half. Jack Willis won two or three huge turnovers. Ramos is a superb tactical full back and kicked 19 points. Flament was brilliant off the bench and has been all season.

    "Quand tu joues contre des joueurs exceptionnels… mais ils n’en ont pas trop non plus. Ils ont beaucoup de joueurs moyens aussi".

    "Il a des individualités exceptionnelles, si ce n’est pas Ntamack, c’est (Antoine) Dupont. Mais après ça, il y a quoi?"



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,640 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I'm not ignoring it. I'm sure he says certain things that may be self-serving (and he wouldn't be the first coach go do it either).

    But I could equally point to many interviews, incidents, comments etc. where he got praised (or indeed, criticised) for his honesty, and say that you are choosing to ignore them in the narrative that he's not honest.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,378 ✭✭✭✭phog


    ROG living rent free in a few posters heads, some things never change.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,640 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I think he speaks his mind and that's fair enough. And it's fair enough to disagree if those comments appear to be somewhat outlandish and silly which they are in this case.

    Which is absolutely fine. And I wouldn't disagree with much of the rest of your post. But I previously got accused of trolling for suggesting the former. Hence my comment.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    I don’t ignore it, he can be honest in his view points. The issue I take with it, is when posters suggest because he said it. It must be true. Which is complete and utter horseshit, especially when it comes to his team.

    Yesterdays comments were truly classless, I’m not sure if I’d even regard them as dishonest, just completely Ill conceived and tasteless.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,575 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    It's not like La Rochelle are overflowing with talent themselves.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I wouldn't go so far as to call ROG a classless thug, but calling a team you've just lost to 'average' is very much classless and abusing officials is thuggish in nature as it can be intimidating. The shoe might not be a perfect fit but he'd get it on his foot all the same and just because he was a bit of a pushover on the pitch doesn't mean that he can't be a negative influence at times off it.

    As for being an honest pundit, he is and he isn't. He gives good insights and is great to listen to but when he wants to play the game he's well able. Prime example being his response to the James Tracey interview.

    And yeah I do disagree with him that Toulouse are an average team, that's if he was being an honest interviewee / pundit at the time.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    As usual, solid engagement on the actual issues.

    The phrase "living rent free in XY's head" appears to live rent free in yours.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Been living rent free in a few posters mouths as well 😘



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,640 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Fine. But I wouldn’t accuse you of trolling for suggesting as much.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,378 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Really?

    Always struck me as the sort to dab a bit of cologne on the aul liathróidí before a thorough humming from fan!



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Well certain posters definitely seem to live rent free in their head that’s for sure.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,378 ✭✭✭✭phog


    If the posters upped their game then that might not be the case 🤣



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,197 ✭✭✭✭Crash


    Can I please live rent free in someone's head? It sounds lovely.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol



    Backed by plenty of evidence, I'd argue everything ROG says when it impacts him is self-serving. He'll even completely contradict himself when he is trying to be self-serving in different ways - one minute LAR is still a small club underdog story supported financially by the local community and the next he is fabricating slights out of thin air that his team is being treated like a small team. Absolutely agree he isn't the first coach to do that but it isn't 'honesty'.

    He gets praised by Irish media for his 'honesty' because they fawn over the access to such a famous player and coach who doesn't use as much 'coach speak'. Again, not using as many clichés isn't 'honesty'.

    Even him speaking so much to Irish media isn't out of the goodness of his own heart - it is again completely self-serving for him. He isn't doing it to be 'honest', he is doing it to keep himself front of mind in Ireland and set his own narrative, knowing that the presenters aren't going to push back on him. It is an incredibly smart move by a very smart man, negating one of the biggest downsides to career growth when coaching abroad.

    On his comments from the weekend, it is hardly surprising that he was classless in losing after he showed his classlessness in victory a few weeks before. As I said at the time, he needs to get this out of his system and mature before he becomes Irish coach, as that kind of stuff simply wont fly when he is under proper media scrutiny. Cullen would have been rightfully hung by the media if he came out with such petulant comments after either EC finals, where his sides lost in very similar fashion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,378 ✭✭✭✭phog




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,127 ✭✭✭ironingbored


    Imagine for a moment if Lancaster or Leo had had a 16 week ban for "inappropriate comments" about match officials or said that about Munster and/or La Rochelle after defeat.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,558 ✭✭✭Ardillaun


    At least ROG seems to do a better job of keeping his hands out of his pockets during interviews these days.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,640 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Weren't you the poster criticising ROG for being too honest about tackle technique, specifically the Atonio red card, earlier in the season?



  • Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭El Vino


    Did anyone find the match in full with English commentary ? Would still like to watch it back.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,253 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Let's assume that ROG is indeed always truthful and calling it as he sees it.

    After the Leinster game, he said his team didn't perform at their best. Fair enough.

    Then after Saturday, he says his team didn't perform at their best again.

    If he genuinely believes this, I wonder how much responsibility he takes himself for his team failing to perform in two finals. That would be some interesting "honesty".

    His comments about Toulouse were just as crass as his comments about Leinster.

    When you can be neither a gracious winner nor a gracious loser, where does that leave you as a person?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    That is another example for him that perfectly fits my point (I did say my opinion was backed up with plenty of evidence).

    ROG again there tried to play both sides to be self-serving to himself. Firstly, he makes himself appear to have a progressive mindset towards head injury by stating that player safety comes first and then straight away pivots into excusing the actions of his own player, making out like there was no option to safely and legally make a stop in that scenario.

    Sure there was some honesty in what he said, especially stating how he doesn't spend much time coaching safe tackle technique, but it is strange for anyone to watch a person speak out of both sides of their mouths within seconds and then claim that the same person is 'honest'.

    ROG looks out for ROG and fair play to him - anyone thinking otherwise is quite naive. He isn't some independent media voice. I think he is part incredibly smart with the media and part completely delusional (like he was as a player too). I think he is mostly the former but at times he says stuff that makes me question myself, his comments post match both finals fall into that category.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,640 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Let's assume that ROG is indeed always truthful and calling it as he sees it.

    Did anyone claim he’s always truthful?

    I said he’s a coach known for his honesty.

    I think that’s entirely reasonable. (And unreasonable to get accused of trolling for suggesting as much).



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,640 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Sure there was some honesty in what he said, especially stating how he doesn't spend much time coaching safe tackle technique…

    This is entirely misrepresenting what he actually said tbh, so that’s the point I’m out…



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,330 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I think he's got a reputation for honesty which is undeserved and more based on his "straight-talking" style. He doesn't speak like most coaches and at times it can be quite refreshing. But it shouldn't be confused with honesty.

    He made any number of falsehoods around the Leinster game as one example. I don't know how you categorise calling Toulouse full of average players, its either dishonest or he's a terrible judge of players.

    So yeah, I agree he is known that way, but I think its nonsense.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    This is it really.

    Most of the "honesty" is the stuff blown up his arse by the OTB lads, who fawn over everything he tells them.

    I definitely find him entertaining and insightful (when he's not talking about topics he has a vested interest in), but the "honesty" thing is such an overblown trope at this point.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    I've watched the game back a couple of times (really cracking game) and I think La Rochelle were mentally wobbly in the game and looked like they were really feeling the occasion. They made some really uncharacteristic errors that killed them. In that area, I think they can probably look at their preparation and mental approach/decisions on the field (much like Leinster a couple of weeks ago). Not sure if that's the fault of any coaching staff or the players just feeling it on the day but it was fairly stark when watching it back given guys who were making errors were absolute rocks all season.

    Hastoy is one of the best kickers in Europe and missed two fairly straightforward shots at goal. He also went for a hasty snap drop goal which he pulled left when it wasn't a particularly tough one even if it was a surprising decision. Danty (who was bloody atrocious) spilled a ball in contact for the try, conceded at least two penalties and was marched back 10m for dissent which brought Ramos into kicking range (and he slotted it). He also got blocked down trying to put in a bizarre kick just outside the Toulouse 22. Alldritt dropped a simple catch with nobody around him. He also took a quick throw to Dulin when totally unnecessary which directly led to a three pointer for Ramos. That's probably two more unforced errors than he has made this season.

    They really lacked attacking shape. Leyds made a brilliant win in the air to put them deep in Toulouse territory in the first half before the back line played hot potato and Danty juggled it to Ntamack who broke away. Despite having 60% possession, Toulouse had more meters made with ball in hand and looked far more threatening when moving the ball.

    I would say there are a dozen moments LAR would want back after that game. The Toulouse defence was superb. The Antonio try aside (which was largely as a result of a very clever block from Alldritt which was fortunate to not get called), they repeatedly knocked LAR back in contact once LAR got inside the opposition 22. LAR had 11 entries onto the Toulouse 22 which should be enough for more points on the board and to put the game to bed but some of the Toulouse hits and linespeed was savage.

    Toulouse dealt with their maul very well thanks to their own size and power. La Rochelle went down the line 7 times to set up their maul but only got one penalty ultimately from it, I think.

    On further watching, I think La Rochelle should have won it purely on possession/territory but I'm less convinced by them being the clear better side. Toulouse pinched it but they deserved to be in that position after 75mins based on their defence and kicking game....Dupont in particular put two or three touchfinders in that were absurdly good.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    This discussion has gone on for a few pages. At what point does it qualify as "relentless abuse" of a coach? Did I infer these rules correctly?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,253 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    In fairness, these semantics aren't the defence you think they are. If he's an "honest" commentator then that implies he's honest all the time. Otherwise he's a "sometimes honest" commentator.

    Some other guy mentioned trolling, take it up with him.

    Ah look he's bang out of order. I understand that coaches sometimes say things in the heat of a defeat, but he does it win lose or draw.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    Tbf to ROG (and keep in mind, we're translating a guy speaking his second language here), there's a world of difference between saying "Toulouse are an average side" and "we lost to an average Toulouse side".

    I don't think many would argue with the latter point. Toulouse won, but it was a pretty bad beat for La Rochelle, compounded by silly individual mistake (Danty alone costing them 10 points).

    Poor etiquette to mention it straight after the game, perhaps. And not the best example of man-management to say it publicly. But by no means a dishonest statement.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,640 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    That’s an entirely black-and-white interpretation.

    I think any fair reading of saying a coach / player / pundit is known for his honesty doesn’t imply he’s honest all the time.

    Going back to where this originated, ya, I absolutely believe ROG is being honest when he says he thinks the maul is what won LAR the Leinster game.

    Is that such an absurd take as to be called trolling?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,378 ✭✭✭✭phog




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,558 ✭✭✭Ardillaun


    I think coaches should be granted some leeway after big matches. They’re probably not thinking straight, so let’s not take them too literally.



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