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Has President Higgins overstepped the mark?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭boetstark


    The very least Ireland should be able to do is monitor any potential threat to infrastructure in our territory , land sea and air.

    The Swiss are not comparable as they are not defenceless and have an abilty to carry out all of the above.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭boetstark


    For what its worth , i have no desire to see us join NATO either.

    But a country that constanly spouts about independence , and neutrality , we should at least have a debate on how we can protect the above values in these new dangerous times.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,305 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Switzerland (and Austria) are effectively land locked by NATO countries.

    Why do you think Finland and Sweden changed their historic policy on neutrality?

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Despite what some may say or feel, the President is entitled to express his views on any topic, regardless of how it may reflect on the govt of the day



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,125 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    The 'forum' being run is a farce - Higgins was right to speak out about it. It is arranged to come to a pre-determined conclusion, blatantly obvious by a glance at the talking heads in attendance.

    The current government have been banging on the NATO drum for a while now, this forum/debate is designed to give them a target of further cooperation with NATO* so they can point at it and say "well we are just following the recommendations of the experts in this field".

    *with a view to ultimately joining the alliance in a decade



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,009 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    What Michael D has done is a disgrace and he is not fit for office.

    It is also cynical, self-promoting and very dangerous.

    What he has done in essence is torpedo a government initiative in regards the future of our defence forces and standing in the world.

    It was due to be kicked off this week, and he wrongly used his position to push a personal ideological position.

    Another term for it, is poisoning the well.

    He also criticised the EU, the president of France, the chair of the commission who has no right of reply.


    Our president has now put himself in the same Euroskeptic populist vein as BoJO and Victor Orban.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,305 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    What's the point of this then in the Constitution?

    2° The President may, after consultation with the Council of State, address a message to the Nation at any time on any such matter.

    3° Every such message or address must, however, have received the approval of the Government.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,630 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Because they border Russia and are strategically valuable and rich in natural resources.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,305 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Sweden doesn't share a border with Russia.

    Ireland is strategically valuable.

    Finland and Sweden were neutral all through the Cold War vis a vis USSR - Russia has changed the rules of the game.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    Why is it a disgrace?

    Also, what’s he self-promoting? He literally can’t run again after this and I would expect him to sail off into retirement.

    Just a lot of buzzwords with no real substance.

    President Higgins has a bigger mandate than anyone you have mentioned.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Those don't apply as this was not an address to the nation or the Oireachtas. You may feel otherwise but it is not the case

    This lays it out for you, in particular why that section does not apply

    Undoubtedly, then, there are significant restrictions on what the President can do. At the same time, and contrary to popular opinion, the Constitution places very few restrictions on what the President might say. It is a common feature of the Irish political scene for Presidents to be criticised for allegedly stepping outside their constitutional domain almost every time they express an opinion that touches on some aspect of economic or social policy. However, the only formal restrictions are in Article 13.7; namely, where the President makes a formal address to either the Oireachtas or the Nation on a matter of national importance, the address must first be approved by the Government.


    The leading text on Irish constitutional law observes that beyond the above, the law does not impose total silence on the President; and, moreover, that the President must be free to respond to criticisms of the manner in which he or she has exercised the powers and functions of the office. A similar point was previously made by the late Robert Elgie.

    The article referred to

    states the following:

    The president is prevented from addressing "a message to the Nation" without the approval of the government. This includes communications to the Oireachtas and has been interpreted to mean speeches at official dinners and the like. Yet, there is nothing explicitly in the Constitution to stop the president from commenting on events less formally and more regularly. The president could be a more integral part of the political debate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,630 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Close enough. Maritime border so.

    Nobody is invading Ireland. It's ludicrous to think that.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,331 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    On the question of what is proper or seemly for the President to say, there is room for reasonable disagreement, and no hard and fast rules to guide us. Few would dispute that Presidents should avoid coming into direct conflict with the Government or favouring one political party over another.

    The article also states this for the record. I don't think his comments were constitutionally barred, but I do think they were not proper.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,630 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    A message to the nation!? 😂

    He made his housing disaster comment outside an addicton centre in Kildare.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,305 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    How is an interview with a national newspaper, in his official capacity as President, not a "message to the Nation" ?

    It certainly doesn't fall under the "free to respond" criteria, although now that he has put himself in the firing line, he should not be above criticism by anyone either.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    How is an interview with a national newspaper, in his official capacity as President, not a "message to the Nation" ?

    Seriously? 🤦‍♂️

    he should not be above criticism by anyone either.

    Who said he should?

    I merely pointed out that he is fully entitled to express his opinion on any matter and there is nothing in the constitution that prevents that. the only exceptions are per the passages from the constitution pasted above



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,462 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    We need clear definitive rules before the next chancer gets comfortable in the big house.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,344 ✭✭✭suvigirl




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,195 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    nope not let it go as she is associating herself with an entity that still exists on a small scale and which continues to cause issues for countries and even inhabitants of the territories themselves.

    you obviously haven't moved on from it as you are happy for her to associate herself with it, which, wanting irish individuals or individuals long term resident in ireland to associate themselves with the british empire is not moving on but is holding us back as it's based on worrying what the british establishment will think of us.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭touts


    Only after his PR team made sure journalists were given a heads up to turn on their cameras.



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    ‘Chancer’ lol.

    Like I said, a bigger mandate than anyone else on this island.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,462 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Dame is just an award she got for her work with disadvantaged kids and the COVID vaccine.

    I'm not insecure enough to let it bother me.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,443 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007



    The powers and functions conferred on the President by this Constitution shall be exercisable and performable by him only on the advice of the Government, save where it is provided by this Constitution that he shall act in his absolute discretion or after consultation with or in relation to the Council of State, or on the advice or nomination of, or on receipt of any other communication from, any other person or body.

    Article 13.9 Relates to the exercise of the powers and functions of the president, absolutely nothing in there preventing the president from expressing his opinion. So have another go or at least stop making up rules in you mind and getting all upset when they are ignored.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 638 ✭✭✭cheese sandwich


    You dont understand much about how a constitution works, do you? It doesn’t set out detailed rules like a statute or regulation does; it lays down broad principles that are supposed to guide the behaviour of organs of the State.

    I never claimed that Higgins broke a ‘rule’; I said he was ignoring clear precedent that all previous presidents adhered to. You have completely ignored my main point that a future president will now be able to refer to Higgins’ behaviour to they to give an opinion on whatever they fancy



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I said he was ignoring clear precedent that all previous presidents adhered to. You have completely ignored my main point that a future president will now be able to refer to Higgins’ behaviour to they to give an opinion on whatever they fancy

    Like how he could refer to the precedent set by Mary McAleese when she lambasted the govt of the day over the financial crisis and what led up to it, or Mary Robinsons many run ins with Albert Reynolds when the govt of the day tried to rein her in and muzzle her (without much success)

    The Irish President is free to speak their mind. There is nothing to stop them doing so.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,573 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    It's gas. Some people on here would piss and moan in an instant if Higgins made a comment on Brennan's Bread.

    hE oVeRsTePped tHe mArK! hE sHoUld rEsIgN! 🤬



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,331 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I think I would have a degree more sympathy with the position that the President can comment on Irish foreign policy and brief against government initiatives if he had made any kind of reasonable argument.

    Ireland’s foreign policy is one of “positive neutrality, and it can be defined very simply as Ireland’s right to belong to any group that it chooses in relation to non-militaristic international policy”, he said. “If you interfere with that, there’s no difference between you and Lithuania and Latvia.”

    Both those countries are Nato members. “That’s the fire that people are playing with,” he said.

    Why on earth is he taking a swipe at Lithuania and Latvia??

    Ireland’s foreign policy position – especially the tradition of neutrality – has been the subject of increasing debate lately. Next week, the government will launch its Consultative Forum on International Security Policy, a series of panel discussions set up to generate discussions on our foreign, security and defence policies.

    “There’s nothing wrong with people playing parlour games in the winter time,” President Higgins said, “but it’s not a discussion on foreign policy, or global security, the issues that matter,” such as climate change, food insecurity, pandemic preparation, or migration.

    Nice to know that Ireland's defence policy is in fact just "parlour games" and doesn't actually matter. This is incredibly dismissive, not of the outcome or makeup of the forum, but the entire idea of having one. Its just not his place to comment on that.

    He called attention to the composition of the panels, which included “the admirals, the generals, the air force, the rest of it”, as well as “the formerly neutral countries who are now joining Nato”.

    This is just fairly rambly, and suggests he does not actually know who the people on the panels are.

    “And the person who’s in charge of this is a person with a very large DBE – Dame of the British Empire,” he said, referring to Louise Richardson. “I think it’s grand, but, you know, I think that there were a few candidates I could have come up with myself.”

    Incredibly dismissive of someone who is not in a position to respond (he has given a mealy mouthed apology about this bit at least)

    He dismissed the argument that Ireland is a small country that is not a member of any military alliance.

    “Is that supposed to be a weakness?” he said. “Who decided it was a weakness? Which retired general has looked into which crystal ball and which retired admiral who has no sailors any more is in fact seeing in the wind something coming towards him?”

    Again, incredibly dismissive of the ex-members of the Defence Forces he is supposed to Commander in Chief of. This is completely unacceptable language.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,462 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    So suppose one of them comes out with racist or homophobic comments?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭Archduke Franz Ferdinand


    Exactly, it’ll be “best out of three lads”… or five… or seven, until they get the right result. Our EU bosses want their cables and infra structures protected and our tinpot army and navy aren’t equipped



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 638 ✭✭✭cheese sandwich


    No previous president has ever come close to the amount of public criticism of a government that Higgins has done, stop trying to pretend otherwise



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 638 ✭✭✭cheese sandwich


    No that is literally the point that some people just want to shut their minds to



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    Guarantee if he said 'Ireland is full' then many would be singing a different tune.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,462 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Entirely possible someone might have an opinion on immigration policy or the role of church and state for example.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    And yet there is nothing to prevent him expressing an opinion

    As I said, you and others may not like that, but, well, tough, thats just the way it is



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,573 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,009 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Nonsense.


    Bojo and Orban have won elections to lead their state's executive.

    Michael D has won an election for a ceremonial position.


    There is a big difference there. Michael D has no influence on taxation policy for example, among a host of other things.


    The only thing they all have in common is that they share a populist Euroskeptic vein.

    Let's not forget that Michael D campaigned for a No vote when Ireland was asked to join the EEC.

    He is your left-wing Farage



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,938 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    I absolutely guarantee that if Peter Casey was president and making interventions like this you'd be calling for his head or god forbid a northern Unionist president. All total hypocrisy from the so called left.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,009 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Cant wait for the time when we get another more right-wing populist in the house and he starts mouthing off on issues like migration and refugees.

    Those clapping like seals will be the first ones to be outraged.



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    I wouldn’t actually. In my life time all three Presidents have made verbal interventions. I might agree or disagree with what they are saying but I will never, ever undermine a President for saying something, or make up lies about how it’s ‘too far’.

    Thankfully we don’t need to have this discussion because Peter Casey got absolutely destroyed in 2018 whereas MDH was returned on the first count with one of the strongest mandates a politician in Ireland will ever receive.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,125 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Maybe those people you describe as "clapping like seals" have the brainpower to judge an opinion on its merits rather than taking some kind of absolutist stance as suggested in your absurd scenario?

    Why can someone not support Higgins' right to speak and also be against any hypothetical right wing anti gay spiel by a future president?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,462 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Because that would be the right to speak if I agree.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,608 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Once you support the right to speak you are free to agree or disagree with what is spoken.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭sondagefaux


    There are restraints on the president's right to freedom of expression written into the constitution, which obviously don't apply to the spouse of a president.

    Higgins hasn't breached those constitutional restraints. Even if you find his remarks ill-advised and/or controversial, they still don't breach the constitutional restraints placed on the office of the presidency.

    Unlike the UK, with its so-called constitution which frequently relies on conventions (i.e. the monarch should be seen to be politically neutral), Ireland's constitution sets out clearly what the limits to a president's freedom of speech are.

    Nothing in the constitution says a president can't give an interview to a newspaper to express their views.

    The only restraints are if a president wishes to address a message (i.e. a written text) to the nation or communicate with the Oireachtas (either in writing or by giving a speech) In those cases, the president must first consult with the Council of States, and the contents of the message/address to be given by the president must have the prior approval of the government. If the president gave a speech which strayed from the content given prior approval by the government, they could potentially be impeached for stated misbehaviour.

    There seems to be an impression among many journalists, politicians and members of the public that Ireland's constitution requires a president to be politically neutral while in office.

    This is not the case, never has been, and Higgins may have annoyed and upset people, but he's done nothing that breaches the constitution.

    As for his wife's opinions and behaviour, they're not regulated in any way shape or form by the constitution over and above those of any other citizen, and she has the same rights to freedom of expression as any other citizen.

    I did take issue with some of her opinions being published on the official presidential website in the past.

    That should not have happened: the spouse of the president should not be treated differently from any other citizen when it comes to having their opinions published by official presidential media.

    Higgins has made a personal apology to a named individual about what he said in this interview.

    He has not apologised for breaching the constitution. He shouldn't and should resist any pressure to do so, since he hasn't actually breached the constitution.

    The relevant section (Article 13.7) of the constitution states the following:

    7     1° The President may, after consultation with the Council of State, communicate with the Houses of the Oireachtas by message or address on any matter of national or public importance.

    2° The President may, after consultation with the Council of State, address a message to the Nation at any time on any such matter.

    3° Every such message or address must, however, have received the approval of the Government.

    Nothing in those provisions prevent a president from expressing opinions in a media interview and nothing in them state or imply that a president must not have, or must not publicly express, opinions on political or other issues.

    If Irish people want a president to be compelled to behave in a politically neutral manner while in office, there should be a constitutional referendum to amend the constitution and insert appropriate provisions.

    Without such provisions, people are obviously entitled to disagree with Higgins and/or his wife, but claiming they've breached the constitution when they haven't is not based on what the constitution actually says.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭sondagefaux


    Here are those provisions as set out in Article 13.7:

    7     1° The President may, after consultation with the Council of State, communicate with the Houses of the Oireachtas by message or address on any matter of national or public importance.

    2° The President may, after consultation with the Council of State, address a message to the Nation at any time on any such matter.

    3° Every such message or address must, however, have received the approval of the Government.

    Remarks made in a media interview, or remarks made outside of the circumstances stated in Article 13.7 are clearly not a message/address to the Oireachtas, nor are they a message addressed to the Nation.

    If people think they are, they should ask the Oireachtas to impeach the president.

    If you seriously believe what O'Malley believes, contact your local TDs, contact Senators, and ask them to begin the impeachment process.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,305 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Where does the Constitution clearly define what is meant by "address a message" ?

    How did he clearly not "address a message" by directing words for publication in a national newspaper?

    If he had written it as a letter to the Letters page would that trip the 'address a message' criteria?

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,841 ✭✭✭buried


    This is hilarious. More americanized Bull$hit where you are either "all in" with the political personality cult figure you worship on your own personality cult spectrum, or they must be nearly literally booted out for having one single opinion you differ with. I agree with Higgins having a right to an opinion, but if you think we are all sitting around hanging on to every word that comes out his tongue and waiting with baited breath everytime he's pontificating from his parlour room on the late late show, you'd want to think again. In actual reality, the vast majority of citizens do not give a $hite what he has to say about anything. He's let himself become a stereotypical cartoon, but when the stereotypical cartoon deviates from the prescribed script, the couple of hundred within the establishment loose their tiny little minds.

    "You have disgraced yourselves again" - W. B. Yeats



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,125 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    No, that would be the right to speak full stop.

    Whether people agree or are up in arms should be about the content, but not the right to speak in the first place.



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