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Has President Higgins overstepped the mark?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,462 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    He's just one bloke at the end of the day with one opinion,but it would be a lot less complicated if the President was to stay out of politics

    The political parties have said they have no intention of joining NATO and we have nothing to offer NATO from what I gather. It's all a bit embarrassing for him and denigrates the office. Definitely better off if it was kept to cutting ribbons and serving nibbles.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,567 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    It is in no way "embarrassing" for the Supreme Commander of the Irish military to comment on Ireland's possible joining of a military organisation at a future date. Nor is it remiss of him to comment on our policy of neutrality.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,462 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Well he's had to apologise twice so far that I recall. Also as I said NATO would have no interest In having Ireland as a member.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭sondagefaux


    The assumptions that people are making that giving a newspaper interview are breaches of the constitution are not based on what the constitution says, but on either their interpretation of the constitution (only the Supreme Court gets to do that in a manner that actually counts, the rest of us can waffle on all we like), or based on their own personal opinions.

    Article 13.7 clearly puts restraints on any messages addressed to the Oireachtas (this has clearly not happened, nothing in this interview states or implies that his remarks were specifically addressed to the Oireachtas) or to the Nation. If you're going to make a claim that this interview amounts to an address to the Nation, you're going to have to convince the Supreme Court that you're correct.

    I sincerely doubt that you'd succeed.

    For starters, at least one junior minister has publicly stated that he didn't breach the constitution:

    Any public comments from Government ministers were very circumspect. Junior Minister Neale Richmond went the furthest saying that the President had gone "very close to the line" but had not crossed it.

    Secondly, neither the Taoiseach, Tanaiste, nor any other member of the government has publicly stated that he's breached the constitution.

    And then there's this:

    But while some may agree or disagree with the sentiments, there is also the question of the President’s right to weigh in on Government policy.

    The convention has been that Presidents do not critique the Government and that the office is above politics. But this is a practice rather than there being an explicit constitutional prohibition on a President expressing their views.

    And President Higgins has not been shy about doing that on uncomfortable topic for this Government. He recently called housing a disaster and has been critical of the treatment of those in direct provision.

    And this:

    Undoubtedly, then, there are significant restrictions on what the President can do. At the same time, and contrary to popular opinion, the Constitution places very few restrictions on what the President might say. It is a common feature of the Irish political scene for Presidents to be criticised for allegedly stepping outside their constitutional domain almost every time they express an opinion that touches on some aspect of economic or social policy. However, the only formal restrictions are in Article 13.7; namely, where the President makes a formal address to either the Oireachtas or the Nation on a matter of national importance, the address must first be approved by the Government.

    The leading text on Irish constitutional law observes that beyond the above, the law does not impose total silence on the President; and, moreover, that the President must be free to respond to criticisms of the manner in which he or she has exercised the powers and functions of the office. A similar point was previously made by the late Robert Elgie.

    On the question of what is proper or seemly for the President to say, there is room for reasonable disagreement, and no hard and fast rules to guide us. Few would dispute that Presidents should avoid coming into direct conflict with the Government or favouring one political party over another.

    But there is no such thing as complete neutrality: anyone who stands for President will stand for something, and will have expressed this during their election campaign. How else can people decide which candidate to vote for? And why should the President abandon these views having been elected on the back of them?

    Whoever is elected President, he or she is not going to have the power to shape how we make our laws or spend our public monies. However, he or she will have some latitude to speak out on issues of importance, provided those speeches avoid conflicting with Government policy.

    Current government policy, as reiterated by the Taoiseach today, is that Ireland should remain militarily neutral and is not going to join NATO:

    The Taoiseach has said Ireland is not going to join NATO, adding that it is very clear the country is going to continue with military neutrality.

    Leo Varadkar was speaking at the News Xchange conference in Dublin which is discussing the future of news media.

    In response to a question about military neutrality, he said the forum has been established to have an in-depth conversation about the policy. He said the world has changed and it is an evolving situation, but maintaining neutrality is the policy of the Government.

    Nothing in Higgin's remarks contradicts those policies as they are at present.

    Criticising the upcoming Consultative Forum on International Security Policy, and expressing concerns that Ireland's current policies on military neutrality might change even to the extent of joining NATO, is not the same as criticising current government policy, which remains in line with Higgin's views, i.e. Ireland should remain militarily neutral and not join NATO.

    If the government policy changes, then Higgins might not be able to criticise it, or at least not in a manner which breaches Article 13.7. But it hasn't changed so it's not possible to say correctly right now that Higgins has breached either the constitution or any informal conventions or expectations (even though not written into the constitution) about the role of a president.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,302 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    From that it is also not possible to correctly (or rather definitively) state that he has not. It is possible his interview does breach the article - without a clear legal definition / precedent of what it means in practice. His actions might be unconstitutional here. It is not 'clear' that his actions are constitutional.

    I am trying to figure out what the limits are and they came to be considered that way.

    There may be nothing constitutionally stopping him from criticising a government policy or proposed policy as long as he does it in a interview to a single newspaper say?

    Or allow himself to be interviewed during a general election in which he expresses a view as to whose policies are better etc ?

    But if he calls the media to Aras an Uachtaran and gives an address from there ... that would in breach of the article?

    Is that really what we think the authors meant?

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,462 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Depends how you interpret "address the nation".

    We think of it as an Oireachtas or TV speech,but a newspaper interview is a sideways blow at least.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,302 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,462 ✭✭✭✭kneemos




  • Registered Users Posts: 968 ✭✭✭Str8outtaWuhan


    Gov missing a trick here. They should quietly ask yet wan to publicly state he position on forum is unsustainable due to "misogynistic and anti British sentiment" from mickleen . Gov then send out the hounds and you have a constitutional crisis that'll last for months covering up all the other shite they are at.



  • Registered Users Posts: 583 ✭✭✭iffandonlyif


    It shows you how immature this country and its citizenry are that a long-standing precedent of presidential neutrality is dismissed as irrelevant to the constitutional question. If it’s not written explicitly in the constitution it’s not relevant, apparently.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭sondagefaux


    It's very clear that he hasn't addressed the Oireachtas, unless there's a letter/email or some other form of communication directed specifically to the Oireachtas that you're aware of. One of the primary rules of legal interpretation is that the ordinary meaning of words as defined by a reasonable person, and as used in legal texts should be applied to them, unless there's a good reason not to (e.g. if they're defined within the text). Nothing in the provision about communication with the Oireachtas could be defined by a reasonable person, albeit this is boards, so clearly not everyone meets that test.

    I'm not aware of one constitutional scholar or expert who thinks a media interview amounts to a message addressed to the Nation.

    If you read Article 13.7, it says the Government must clear any such address.

    Neither the Government as a body nor any individual member of the Government has publicly stated that this interview amounts to such a message let alone an unapproved message.

    Given that only the Government can decide whether or not to approve such an message, it follows that only the Government can decide whether or not to make a statement that this interview amounts to such a unapproved message.

    It's somewhat akin to someone taking offence on my behalf if another person called me a 'fatso'. I get to decide whether that's an insult or if I'm offended, not another person.

    In this instance, only the Government gets to state that this interview is an unapproved message to the Nation, and only the Supreme Court gets to decide if that Government statement is correct, although the Supreme Court is very unlikely to intervene unless an impeachment process is actually started and challenged by Higgins on the basis that his media interview doesn't amount to an address to the Nation, couldn't be unapproved by the Government, and thus there could be no reasonable basis for his potential impeachment for stated misbehaviour.

    So unless the Government clearly states that it is of the opinion that this interview amounts to an unapproved message to the Nation, it's not going to go any further, and the opinions of members of the public, journalists and other commentators, and politicians don't amount to a hill of beans.

    Even in the very unlikely event that the Supreme Court is asked to rule on this issue, it should be very clear (unless you're an unreasonable person who doesn't want to interpret the language used in the constitution according to the ordinary meaning of the words) that Higgin's interview is clearly not a communication of any kind to the Oireachtas and, unless you can show that the Government itself thinks that this interview amounts to an unapproved message addressed to the Nation, you're hardly going to convince the Supreme Court otherwise.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭sondagefaux


    Varadkar refusing to even criticise Higgins, let alone state he's breached the constitution.

    Unless there's a dramatic u-turn after the next Government meeting, I think we can safely say this one is done and dusted, at least as far as the Government is concerned. And since the Government is the only body of people that could actually make that statement in a way that could potentially engage the constitution's provisions on impeachment (the rest of us are free to waffle on), anything further would just be hot air, of which the weather is providing more than enough for my tastes: adieu then.

    Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has refused to comment on President Michael D Higgins’ remark about Ireland’s foreign policy.

    Speaking to Virgin Media News this afternoon, Mr Varadkar said that joining Nato was not on the agenda of the Government or any political party in Ireland.

    “There’s a long-standing convention that government ministers don’t criticise or comment on the president and that allows the presidency to be above party politics, so I don’t want to say any more than that,” he said.

    “We need to beef up our own Defence Forces and we also need to work out how we can cooperate with Europe and other partners, but military neutrality is safe.”

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/taoiseach-refuses-to-comment-on-president-michael-d-higgins-remarks-on-irelands-foreign-policy-and-neutrality/a478722985.html



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,070 ✭✭✭hoodie6029


    Gerard Howlin has put it very well

    ‘The President foolishly allowed himself to indulge the reflex of someone who believes they know better and has the right to insist he does. As the incumbent, he is responsible for the past, present and future of the office of president. On November 11th, 2025, his successor will be inaugurated. He cannot behave now as if he is still on the hustings because it changes the future as well as the present. The President has momentarily become emblematic of the exercise of a mode of authority against which he spent his political life railing.’

    I always felt Michael Higgins ‘Off script’ moments were him trying to make up for the fact despite his decades in politics, he was only ever Minister of a lowly portfolio for a wet week.

    He has taken advantage of the fact that the government can’t do much about what he says, except respond. Given all the transgressions, from both him and Sabina, he should resign. He won’t but he should in order to preserve the Office.

    This is water. Inspiring speech by David Foster Wallace https://youtu.be/DCbGM4mqEVw?si=GS5uDvegp6Er1EOG



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,302 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Its very clear he didnt address the Oireachtas? Well who said he had on this thread??? Not sure what point you think you are trying to make or to whom but there was nothing in my post about that condition. Or any post on this thread.

    What is the ordinary meaning of an 'address to the nation' as you understand it? Im curious as to some specific examples that would be considered as meeting that definition and therefore needing to be cleared by the Government?

    Also noted you didnt respond to the questions re the implications that such an interpretation of 'address the nation' means there is no constitutional barrier to the President criticising the goverment of the day or praising the policy of a party during a general election as long as it is done through a media interview?

    Unless they are willing to take a gamble of the definition of 'address to the Nation'?

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,330 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Well, I think his comment is couched in very deliberate language about convention.

    Nonetheless, I don't think "overstepped the mark" is synonymous with "breached the constitution".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,676 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Yeah you would swear with all the high drama that NATO were down on their knees begging us to join up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,462 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Apparently all the Government are interested in is increased cooperation with Europe.

    Makes perfect sense given Russia's shenanigans around our coast .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 749 ✭✭✭tjhook


    There are a number of roles in this country that are supposed to be "above politics". These roles include the Gardai, Cathaoirleach, the judiciary, and the president. I'm sure there are more but they're the ones that come to mind. To be viewed as pro- or anti-government diminishes their neutrality, which is necessary for them to carry out their responsibilities.

    If a bill relating to Ireland's defence was to pass MDH's desk, and he raises barriers against its implementation, can we trust that he is an objective referee with genuine concerns about its constitutionality? Or would we be justified in being suspicious that he has adopted a personal position against the bill? If your politics happen to align with his you'll likely believe that he's neutral. But MDH has provided justification for suspicion. That diminishes the presidency.

    As an aside, my own opinion is that the president should represent the people of Ireland. Not just the people with a particular political viewpoint. I happen to have a dislike for Castro. And while I would have previously been very much against Ireland aligning with NATO, I think recent world events make it at least worthy of discussion. And contrary to MDH's spoken position, I think continued economic growth is a good thing for us. With MDH being outspoken on these (and more) topics, I feel he doesn't represent me. He's not my president. Previous presidents may very well have had similar opinions to MDH, but they were more capable of representing people of all persuasions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,302 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    If he overstepped the mark am trying to figure out which one... if not constitution then the conventions of the office.

    And if so what are they and how far might that envelope be pushed in future.

    Because it appears there is no constitutional barrier to the sitting President openly criticising the Government actions, their proposed policies or commenting during a general election - as long as they do it in an interview to a single newspaper.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,938 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    They don't want to see the see the bigger picture or maybe they genuinely don't understand. What he has actually done is interfere in the business of government who we elect to take executive decisions.

    We had a President resign for less in the past than what Higgins has done.

    What goes around comes around. Sooner or later there will be a President the left don't agree with.

    Higgins is setting a precedent.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,009 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Do you not think that MDH has any limit on what he can and cannot say?



  • Registered Users Posts: 216 ✭✭a2deden


    Everytime he opens his mouth, he shows exactly who he is. Elected because people liked his dogs



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 316 ✭✭Mikefitzs


    Has President Higgins overstepped the mark?

    No! In a democratic republic free speech is a fundemental right. If the government tries to stop the president speaking how does that look to citizens that want to have their voices heard? That's not overstepping the mark. The government is overstepping the mark by attempting to remove free speech from the President.

    Just a passenger



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,467 ✭✭✭boardise


    A viperous hypocrite in a ludicrous institutional role.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,170 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    He overstepped the mark by seeking a second term in office, reneging on his previous commitment not to. He should not be commenting on political issue. Got a rap on the knuckles from Leo and rightly so.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,567 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    That's neither here nor there.

    There is nothing "embarrassing" about the supreme commander of the Irish Military commenting on the possible future affairs of the Irish Military, no matter how hard some people wish it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,462 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    He has nothing to do with the military for cryin out loud. It's a ceremonial role.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    He's fully entitled to run for a second time. His share of the votes showed he had the support of 56% of the people to do so, a landslide

    As for Leo, he deliberately did not give "a rap on the knuckles" to the President or anything close to it, to suggest otherwise is just silly as all responses so far from the various parties have all been posted in this thread.

    In fact he did the EXACT OPPOSITE




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,906 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    You could argue that the president abandoning their position of political neutrality gives the country an excuse to give up their neutrality as well.

    Talk about an own goal, NATO isn't on the cards for Ireland but future presidents now have a precedent to follow and can say what they want and the MDH cheerleaders will be clutching pearls when a pres they don't like is living at the áras.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,906 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    I believe the country needs a representative, it doesn't matter who does the role though, the "election" is a sop and allows the government to distract from other issues.



  • Registered Users Posts: 583 ✭✭✭iffandonlyif


    Much as I lament Higgins’s behaviour, I struggle to justify it as being unconstitutional, because the constitution says almost nothing about presidential conduct outside of specific duties. The best argument is surely that it is implied that the President must remain above politics in order to carry out those duties, given their nature. But even if you grant that implication, does that make it unconstitutional?

    Your comment, though, prompted me to think it ironic that both sides in this dispute are wrong to invoke the Constitution, because Irish neutrality isn’t in the Constitution either. Perhaps if the fervent neutralists recognised that, they might be more sympathetic to arguments around precedent.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,567 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    He's, literally, the SUPREME COMMANDER OF THE IRISH DEFENCE FORCES.



  • Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Yaretzi Early Sorbet


    Have a referendum and change the constitution so.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,531 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    So...who's going to arrest cuddly old Mickel D?? A tea cosy/soft toy in human form.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 638 ✭✭✭cheese sandwich




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,617 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    Are any of the people outraged by his expressing of a (widely held) opinion able to recall the same level of outrage when he spoke out in favour of abortion legislation? Or his support of gay marriage?

    The man is more in touch with the populous than any of the “leaders” in leinster house.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,980 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    For anyone not well up on the Irish constitution, RTE had interesting piece on the role of our President this morning:

    Think I will have to give more thought to how I vote for President in future based on how the role seems to be evolving under Higgins (could call this a kind of "drift" perhaps!).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,608 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    It's a constitutional role.

    Article 13.4.

    All officers in the Defence Forces receive their commissions from the President.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,009 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    I wonder why MDH has not commented on the new Hate Speech laws?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭tesla_newbie


    Probably because he’s enthusiastically in favour of them



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,009 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Exactly.

    Yet they are a greater danger to the freedom and rights of Irish people than a forum discussing our future and defence of foreign policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,578 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Are you sure they landed b52s in shannon ? I dont remember that ,(or anyother bombers/ fighters ) happening but im open to correction ..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,330 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    “There’s a long-standing convention that government ministers don’t criticise or comment on the president and that allows the presidency to be above party politics, so I don’t want to say any more than that,” he said.

    This is fairly obviously a coded rebuke of the president ignoring the exact same convention.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,330 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    You mean the leaders who organised the constitutional conventions on these topics, arranged the referenda and then tabled and voted for the abortion legislation?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭Count Dracula


    I heard close to 1 million casualties in Iraq during the search for weapons of mass destruction.

    Try your local library, there is microfilm in the ilac centre or Tallaght.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,578 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Whats interesting ( apart from MDH being more overtly political than his recent predecessors ) ,is that no debate on security can be countenanced by a lot of people ..

    I havent heard anyone suggest we drop our non alligned status , ( we're not constitutionally neutral anyway )

    I havent heard any politician suggest we should even think of joining NATO,

    - I presume we'd need a referendum on applying to join nato anyway -

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,578 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Well i wont be going to the ilac or tallagh , i tend to avoid dublin like the plague -

    Are you implying that the tragic deaths in iraq (which werent from ariel bombing ) , were because of " b52s from shannon "

    And i agree that both iraq and Afghanistan were stupid ,shambles , misguided , and WRONG ..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,617 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,330 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    We're already not really neutral, but its not a constitutional issue so of course not. Just like we didn't have a referendum on our current policy.

    We are not that likely to make any meaningful changes to our current policy, though I suspect they will (correctly) look at the Triple Lock policy and how it can be amended to remove Russia's veto over our deployment of forces.



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